Gravestone "erected by his comrades". And "IHS"

[Moonraker]

Today I visited several CWGC graveyards on the edge of Salisbury Plain, including those at Sutton Veny and Codford. Nearly all the stones were the standard CWGC type, but there was the occasional non-uniform one, often inscribed "erected by his comrades".

I wonder what prompted this recognition: a comrade held in special regard? A unit with particular esprit de corps? A conscientious officer prompting a subscription to be raised?

Perhaps it was felt that the man deserved better than one of the wooden crosses provided by the authorities. I wonder when the programme of replacing these with the iconic white stones began - it must have taken a long time to complete.

The inscriptions on some of the non-standard stones had become a little difficult to decipher - obviously they had been exposed to the elements for longer than the CWGC ones.  I wonder if the Commission's remit extends to maintaining them?

And I noticed that several stones had "IHS" inscribed on them, which, I discover, is a christogram  meaning  "Iesus Hominem Salvator" ("Jesus Saviour of Mankind").

 

Edited 28 May , 2023 by Moonraker

[Matlock1418]

On 28/05/2023 at 19:08, Moonraker said:

The inscriptions on some of the non-standard stones had become a little difficult to decipher - obviously they had been exposed to the elements for longer than the CWGC ones.  I wonder if the Commission's remit extends to maintaining them?

You don't mention any names but you could try looking at the CWGC Graves Registration Report Forms and/or Headstone Schedules to see what is mentioned there - usually using a code [remembering which is currently defeating me! - though PP now springs to mind = Private Permanent / Permanent Private I think].

Private memorials are not a CWGC responsibility but can be replaced by a CWGC headstone if the grave plot holder allows it ** [some searching, I was going to type 'digging', required I would think!]

M

Edit: ** I've even seen private and CWGC headstones on the same grave - examples being https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2747443/s-pearson and https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/4028542/herbert-hall [photos available on request]

Edited 31 May , 2023 by Matlock1418
add link for Hall

[Matlock1418]

As for replacements - an example could be https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/406707/jean-miles-walker/

MATRON JEAN MILES WALKER

Regiment & Unit/Ship  Australian Army Nursing Service

Date of Death  Died 30 October 1918  Age 39 years old

Buried or commemorated at SUTTON VENY (ST. JOHN) CHURCHYARD 15. H. 1.

She originally had a "P.P." grave marker according to the GRRF and Headstone Schedule but it has more recently been replaced by a standard CWGC headstone.

And https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/406702/fanny-isobel-catherine-tyson

SISTER FANNY ISOBEL CATHERINE TYSON

Regiment & Unit/Ship  Australian Army Nursing Service

Date of Death  Died 20 April 1919  Age 28 years old

Buried or commemorated at SUTTON VENY (ST. JOHN) CHURCHYARD 85. L. 5.

She originally had a "P.P." according to the GRRF and a "P.M." grave marker according to the Headstone Schedule but it has more recently been replaced by a standard CWGC headstone.

= Come on folks, please help me out ... What does "P.M." mean on a Headstone Schedule?  I've got Private Metal and Permanent Metal lurking in my dense skull, but ... ???

M

Edited 28 May , 2023 by Matlock1418
add GRRF

[RaySearching]

Private  memorial

[Matlock1418]

3 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

Private  memorial

Thanks Ray, That was quick.

Could be, ... but? - Do you perhaps have a source?

M

[Matlock1418]

12 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

MATRON JEAN MILES WALKER

Regiment & Unit/Ship  Australian Army Nursing Service

Date of Death  Died 30 October 1918  Age 39 years old

Buried or commemorated at SUTTON VENY (ST. JOHN) CHURCHYARD 15. H. 1.

She originally had a "P.P." grave marker according to the Headstone Schedule but it has more recently been replaced by a standard CWGC headstone.

This seems to have been her original marker [or at least an early one]

Image thanks to Find a Grave https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/91020048/jean-miles-walker/photo

M

Edit: Sorry Moonraker - not intending to highjack your thread.

Further edit: To keep things together - there is this GRRF for both MILES-WALKER and TYSON - PPMs replaced by Commission H/Stones ["Permanent", "Private" and "Memorial" seem likely to all be in there]

Image thanks to CWGC

 

Edited 29 May , 2023 by Matlock1418
add GRRF

[RaySearching]

9 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Sorry Moonraker - not intending to highjack your thread.

Nor I but here is a similar grave marker

CWGC entry

Stoker 1st Class JAMES WILLIAM WEST
K8604, H.M.S. "Lucia.", Royal Navy
who died age 29 on 04 November 1916
Son of Charles and Annie West, of 40, Ellison St., Bracebridge, Lincoln.
 ESTON CEMETERY

Stoker James William West was discharged dead From the HMS St Lucia on the 4th of November 1916 (cause of death fractured skull)

St Lucia was a British submarine depot ship a former Hamburg-America liner Spreewald. Built in 1907

She was captured in September 1914 by HMS Berwick and converted into a submarine depot ship on the Clyde

Between 1916 and 1918 she served in the first world war on the River Tees berthed with the 10th Submarine Flotilla

The first 10th Submarine Flotilla had been created at the beginning of the war in Dec 1914 based at HMS Forth at Immingham on the Humber

the Flotilla initially comprised of five petrol engined C class submarines

Which increased to 12 submarines of 4 different classes as the war progressed

St Lucia was  given the nickname of 'Lucifer' by her crews

Stoker James William West has a memorial inscription on Bracebridge War memorial in Lincolnshire

 

 

[Matlock1418]

21 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

here is a similar grave marker

I note CWGC have as a "P.M."

I have a number of photos of non-CWGC headstones which are "P.M." or "P.P." - still trying to find one Erected by his comrades or similar [I feel sure I have one, somewhere!]

I have photos of a number of non-CWGC memorials with I.H.S. quite commonly on a stone cross I seem to think.

M

[charlie2]

51 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Do you perhaps have a source?

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/about-our-records/glossary/
 

Charlie

[Matlock1418]

Found one!

Leading Seaman George LACE, 1829C - a "P.M." Stone - Erected by the Officers and Men of the Naval Base and Patrol Vessels Penzance https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/347120/george-lace

M

Edit: CWGC record he was a Long Service and Good Conduct Medal recipient. Born at Douglas, Isle of Man.  His widow and family's pension card at WFA/Fold3 indicates his Dead body was found at sea on another date, lost with ship and his widow living at Castletown, Isle of Man. One suspects it is this long-distance Penzance/Isle of Man separation that perhaps at least partly prompted this memorial as well as a seafaring community honouring a long-serving one of their own kind.

His 2 page file BT 377/7/34073 records the LS&GC award 1915 and his wife's address as Douglas, Isle of Man and also Castletown. 1914/15 Star, BWM & VM.

Edited 31 May , 2023 by Matlock1418
edit

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, charlie2 said:

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/about-our-records/glossary/

Thanks Charlie - I just couldn't find my copy! So much on my computer!! Or the one on the CWGC site!!! 

Sorted the "P.P." = Private Permanent 

No "P.M." though - but very commonly used on many Headstone Schedules [and these also as "P.P". on the Graves Registers]

M

Edit: "P.M." = Private Memorial looks more and more plausible at the moment

Edited 28 May , 2023 by Matlock1418
edit

[Matlock1418]

Another "P.M." https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/347128/john-reader [Also as a "PP"]

SEAMAN JOHN READER

Service Number: 1663X  

Regiment & Unit/Ship Newfoundland Royal Naval Reserve H.M. Trawler "J. C. Meickle."

Date of Death Died 17 May 1915 Age 19 years old

 

One might have expected higher ranking and older casualties would get a fancy private memorial but it seems not always

M

Edit: CWGC https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/347128/john-reader record he was the Son of John and Mary Ann Reader, of Bonavista, Newfoundland.  His pension card at WFA/Fold3 repeats this address and indicates that he died of Measles.  One suspects it is this very long-distance Penzance/Newfoundland separation that perhaps prompted this memorial.

Further edit: Canadian Virtual Memorial https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/canadian-virtual-war-memorial/detail/80000870 with a photo of John [oh so young looking - the CVM seem to have him aged 17 c/w CWGC's 19 years old] and a photo of his memorial monument at United Church Cemetery, Bonavista, Newfoundland also included [even bigger and more impressive than the one at Penzance].

 

Edited 31 May , 2023 by Matlock1418
Further edit

[Matlock1418]

13 hours ago, Moonraker said:

And I noticed that several stones had "IHS" inscribed on them, which, I discover, is a christogram  meaning  "Iesus Hominem Salvator" ("Jesus Saviour of Mankind").

Here's an "IHS" example from the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst Cemetery

George Thomas ATKINS https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/648726/g-t-atkins

This one is described as a "PP" and then as a "PM/C" [and some others at RMAS as "PM/B"] so as to expand the mystery.

I don't know who is responsible for the maintenance of this memorial stone [though I think it is likely that RMAS do the gardening for the whole of the cemetery] but I note a number of other 'WW1 period' plots at RMAS have standard CWGC headstones [some of which are old and some quite recent].

M

Edited 29 May , 2023 by Matlock1418
add

[Moonraker]

Thanks for the speedy and informed replies (though no views expressed yet on "I wonder what prompted this recognition: a comrade held in special regard? A unit with particular esprit de corps? A conscientious officer prompting a subscription to be raised? ).

Though the graveyards are of modest size compared with those in Europe, the rows of stones still provide a moving experience. Originally there were 98 ANZAC interments in the "new churchyard" or "military burial ground" at Codford St Peter and 205 at Sutton Veny (figures taken from my 1930 register of Wiltshire war graves). I visited early on Sunday morning, with very few villagers about, and Codford has benefitted from the main road through it having been bypassed. So it was all very peaceful. It would have been quite a shock to the communities when thousands of recruits arrived in the autumn of 1914.

[Matlock1418]

6 hours ago, Moonraker said:

though no views expressed yet on "I wonder what prompted this recognition: a comrade held in special regard? A unit with particular esprit de corps? A conscientious officer prompting a subscription to be raised? ).

I suspect you have cited some of the potential reasons why private memorials might be erected but really I think they will have been manyfold.

The examples of the George LACE and John READER that I provided above come from Penzance so a seafaring 'esprit de corps' so to speak and their traditions may have played their role.

Elevated rank and position may have paid their part but as in the two above this seems likely to have been superceded by other reasons.

You cite Sutton Veny - that cemetery has a significant number of Australians like Jean Miles WALKER [rank may have paid its part] and Fanny Isobel Catherine TYSON so I wonder if their caring roles had won the hearts of lots of similarly exiled antipodean young men who were also bereft of their own ladies [mothers, wives, fiancees, girlfriends] and simply lacking much female company overall.

Whilst speculation based on circumstances can run riot I think you are only likely to get a slightly better understanding of such examples, and perhaps overall, if you and/or other GWF members can find the hard evidence to explain some of them.  I wonder if any newspaper articles or similar might possibly offer some insight ??

M

Edited 30 May , 2023 by Matlock1418
typo

[Matlock1418]

As for George Thomas ATKINS, RAMC, aged 33 at RMAS - makes me think he was possibly a member of the staff rather than a cadet so medical 'esprit de corps' or respect again seem plausible.  Or maybe it was the style of the establishment that demanded more than a simple wooden cross. Or perhaps even it might possibly have been privately funded by his relatives [??]

His age and the lack of a rank detail makes me suspect he was not especially high ranking, though I could be wrong.  Though erring away from a Private perhaps the MO [Capt/Major?]?? Edit: he was a Private.  And the RAMC seems a bit of a later addition. 

The cemetery contains a range of ranks spanning a time range greater than the World Wars.

I have no idea of the arrangements for burials at RMAS but suspect the explanation and his details might be lodged somewhere in their archives - if only we could readily access them!

M

Edited 30 May , 2023 by Matlock1418
strike correction

[Matlock1418]

10 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Though erring away from a Private perhaps the MO [Capt/Major?]??

My error! - Of course I should have better checked/read CWGC!!

PRIVATE G. T. ATKINS. Service Number: 39859, R.A.M.C. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/648726/g-t-atkins

Again a junior rank, but what a prestigeous place of burial - though far from the usual enquiring eyes the plot will undoubtedly continue to be well maintained for a good while longer.

M

Edited 30 May , 2023 by Matlock1418

[Matlock1418]

 Another similar example - again a seafarer from a SW England graveyard.

LIEUTENANT WILLIAM JAMES LINDSAY https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/346939/william-james-lindsay

Regiment & Unit/Ship: Royal Naval Reserve H.M. Trawler "Alberia."

Date of Death: Died 21 August 1917 Age 41 years old

Buried or commemorated at FALMOUTH CEMETERY, CORNWALL K. A. 19.

"A tribute from his brother officers" - so I guess we know with a bit more certainty who erected it even if we don't know exactly why [though we might probably quite closely speculate]

M

Edit: It seems HM Trawler "Alberia" survived to again later serve and be sunk in WW2 [as "Alberic"] so it might be of interest to know more about what might have happened on 21 Aug. 1917. Further edit:  Lt. LINDSAY's record ADM 240/39/263 shows 21.8.17 Died in Sailors' Hospital at Falmouth from 1) Gastro ulcer 2) General enteritis 3) Asthema [previously having had Dyspepsia 11.4.16] - an address of Rughara, Giffnock nr. Glasgow is also given so he's seemingly resting far from home [and relatives? - A Miss E Lindsay of East Kilbride is recorded at CWGC (a sister perhaps)] - so potentially part of an an explanation for this memorial [??]

Edited 31 May , 2023 by Matlock1418
Further edit

[Moonraker]

Yesterday I visited Fovant Churchyard, which has some 60 CWGC graves. I didn't spot one non-standard gravestone. I wonder whether one minor reason was that there was a larger proportion of British soldiers interred, together with Australians, compared with Codford and Sutton Veny, where those buried were mostly ANZACs. My perception is that British soldiers had less money to spend.

I  noticed a villager's grave with a memorial inscription to a son killed in Belgium.

[Matlock1418]

On 05/06/2023 at 07:20, Moonraker said:

My perception is that British soldiers had less money to spend.

Seems a very pausible explanation, plus the fact that so many ANZACs were so far from home & close family and a good memorial would seem all in all a better tribute - especially as so many were subsequently photographed in order for those photos to be sent to loved ones.

One has to remember too that many British families couldn't afford a private burial [even though rail transport home inside the UK would be at state's expense] or a memorial headstone and so fell back on the standard state funeral and an I/CWGC headstone.

M