Trying to locate location of photo

[the_ageing_young_rebel]

Hi All,

         I have a panoramic photo of a point on the somme that I've been researching (I haven't posted it in its full form as its owned by the IWM, unless everybody thinks thats ok?). I'm trying to find the location from which it was taken. The image suggests it was taken 500yrds N.W of Ovillers (x7.b.96), which is great. Usually I'd just type that reference into the Western Front's Trench Mapper to get an exact pinpoint, but I can't get that ref to work on the site. Does anybody have any tips to convert that refernce into a modern usable map ref?

         Thanks in advance

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I suspect the co-ordinates have been butchered.

They might be 57d.x.7.b.9.6

 

Edited 16 May , 2023 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[the_ageing_young_rebel]

30 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

I suspect the co-ordinates have been butchered.

They might be 57d.x.7.b.9.6

Thanks! I suspect that you're correct. At least that looks like a very likely position

[the_ageing_young_rebel]

And here is the complete panorama for anybody that might ever need it

[303man]

Actually has 96 on the spot. Square 7, sub square B, 9 along and 6 up.

[the_ageing_young_rebel]

5 hours ago, 303man said:

Actually has 96 on the spot. Square 7, sub square B, 9 along and 6 up.

Thanks. I think you may be right. My intention is to go there one day and see if I can match up the panorama with the modern view

[brianmorris547]

For interest the Long Long Trail shows the Divisions of the Reserve Army for this period, including 25 and 48 Divs.

The WD of 25 Div HQ, WO 95/2224 records that on 21/08/1916 25 Div and 48 Div were to attack the German trenches east of the Leipzig Salient. It contains the report of 1 Bn Wiltshire who carried out the attack. There are sketches of the objectives of this action in the WDs of 25 Div HQ and 48 Div HQ GS, WO 95/2745. The WD of 48 Div HQ records that on 22/08/1916 145 Infantry Brigade took over from 144 Infantry Brigade north of Ovillers. The August WD of 145 IB, WO 95/2760 has a number of maps showing trench names which will interest Bill but the only one which shows Ovillers is this one. 

Re the modern IGN maps. I have IGN 1:25 000 sheet 2407 O Acheux-En-Amienois which shows the area and may just about show the position north of Ovillers but the village itself is just off the map. EDIT: According to my IGN map the part of the panorama in the first post looks to be a mirror image. Fron Ovillers looking N to WNW Mailly-Maillet would be out to the left with Mesnil in the centre and Bois de Aveluy to the right.

Courtesy TNA/Ancestry WO 95/2760

Brian

 

Edited 7 July , 2023 by brianmorris547

[brianmorris547]

This is the IGN 2407 O.

As far as I can make out X 7 b 9 6, to the north of Ovillers, is just off the bottom right of the map below the ll in Authuille. Surely from that position Mailly would be to the left of Mesnil.

Brian

[brianmorris547]

This August 1916 map is from the NLS system and can be used to compare with the panorama.

Brian.

https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465248

Edited 9 July , 2023 by brianmorris547

[the_ageing_young_rebel]

On 08/07/2023 at 06:34, brianmorris547 said:

As far as I can make out X 7 b 9 6, to the north of Ovillers, is just off the bottom right of the map below the ll in Authuille. Surely from that position Mailly would be to the left of Mesnil.

Thanks Brian. Here is a little screengrab of a google map with lines showing the perspective of where Mailly and Mensil are in relation to the location the photo was taken from.

Thanks for all the research help though

[the_ageing_young_rebel]

I found these map overlays that I made of the attack that occured on the date of the photo quite useful as well. Although still its a little hard to marry up the image and the location in my imagination

[brianmorris547]

Yes

I saw the proper line when I posted the August 1916 map that was on the NLS system. Ovillers was further to the right which made the difference.

Thanks.

Brian

[WhiteStarLine]

@the_ageing_young_rebel and @brianmorris547 I feel a bit of a dill because I followed this thread and did not contribute because I thought I had nothing to add.  It was a most interesting thread, too.

I just found by chance when answering another post that TrenchMapper has the locations and arcs of a number of these panoramas.  I assume panorama 62 is the one you are referring to.  The WFA holds large scans of these panoramas but georeferencing these, if even possible, is not a 2023 task.  To find this map on TrenchMapper, right click over the map, select Map Id Jump and paste in ma_006900

The elevation profile shows that Mesnil is visible over Authuille, too.

Cheers, Bill

Sheet: 57D & 57C [parts of]
Scale: 1:40,000
Edition: 1 1916
Note on reverse, "Index map to panoramas of Somme Advance". 2 sheets pasted together
Id: ma_006900

[the_ageing_young_rebel]

44 minutes ago, WhiteStarLine said:

@the_ageing_young_rebel and @brianmorris547 I feel a bit of a dill because I followed this thread and did not contribute because I thought I had nothing to add.  It was a most interesting thread, too.

I just found by chance when answering another post that TrenchMapper has the locations and arcs of a number of these panoramas.

No worries, as a frequent lurker on the forum I know how it feels to not be able to contribute much to a post.

Thanks for that detail from trenchmapper though, that’s fantastic! And if I ever manage to get out there to recreate this image, it will be fantastically useful 

[brianmorris547]

Thanks Bill.