Charles William Brown K6592

[Mick M]

A bit of help with service and ships please.

Charles joined the RN in 1907 aged 12, his record shows his fist ship as HMS Blenhiem in July 1910 as a leading Stoker. On joining was his rank Stoker even as a boy of 12?

From his list of ships he has various spells with Victory 1 and 2 am I right these were shore based schools?

The 1911 census has him posted to HMS Illustrious as leading stoker, with a CO Captain Rowland Newton with what looks like ret (retired) after his name. Was this a school? His record is not complete as Illustrious is not mentioned now is basic training on entry.

I think the majority of his ships are Depot type assigned to HMS ROSALIND any pointers on those would be nice.

[KizmeRD]

See link below for details of his pre-1910 RN service…

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7071825

MB

[KizmeRD]

3 hours ago, Mick M said:

A bit of help with service and ships please.

Charles joined the RN in 1907 aged 12, his record shows his fist ship as HMS Blenhiem in July 1910 as a leading Stoker. On joining was his rank Stoker even as a boy of 12?

From his list of ships he has various spells with Victory 1 and 2 am I right these were shore based schools?

The 1911 census has him posted to HMS Illustrious as leading stoker, with a CO Captain Rowland Newton with what looks like ret (retired) after his name. Was this a school? His record is not complete as Illustrious is not mentioned now is basic training on entry.

I think the majority of his ships are Depot type assigned to HMS ROSALIND any pointers on those would be nice.

 

If he was born in 1889 as the records indicate, then he would not have been a boy of 12 when enlisting into the Royal Navy (initially) on a Short Service Engagement (5 years plus 7 in reserve). The documentation shows that he joined up in 1907 aged 18 as a Stoker (2nd Class), and obviously liked it enough to transfer to a full 12 year engagement in 1910. After the war he was discharged shore in 1920, having risen to the rate of Petty Officer Stoker.

Details of ships can be Googled, but VICTORY I & II were accounting bases for ratings attached to Portsmouth naval base.

MB

PS Captain Rowland NEWGENT RN was commanding officer of HMS ILLUSTRIOUS (a Majestic  Class Battleship) at the time of the 1911 Census.

Edited 15 May , 2023 by KizmeRD

[Mick M]

41 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

If he was born in 1889 as the records indicate, then he would not have been a boy of 12 when enlisting into the Royal Navy (initially) on a Short Service Engagement (5 years plus 7 in reserve). The documentation shows that he joined up in 1907 aged 18 as a Stoker (2nd Class), and obviously liked it enough to transfer to a full 12 year engagement in 1910. After the war he was discharged shore in 1920, having risen to the rate of Petty Officer Stoker.

Details of ships can be Googled, but VICTORY I & II were accounting bases for ratings attached to Portsmouth naval base.

MB

PS Captain Rowland NEWGENT RN was commanding officer of HMS ILLUSTRIOUS (a Majestic  Class Battleship) at the time of the 1911 Census.

Thanks I'll download the NA file, I'd assumed it was the same thing as the Ancestry record as above.

[Mick M]

1 hour ago, KizmeRD said:

If he was born in 1889 as the records indicate, then he would not have been a boy of 12 when enlisting into the Royal Navy (initially) on a Short Service Engagement (5 years plus 7 in reserve). The documentation shows that he joined up in 1907 aged 18 as a Stoker (2nd Class), and obviously liked it enough to transfer to a full 12 year engagement in 1910. After the war he was discharged shore in 1920, having risen to the rate of Petty Officer Stoker.

Details of ships can be Googled, but VICTORY I & II were accounting bases for ratings attached to Portsmouth naval base.

MB

PS Captain Rowland NEWGENT RN was commanding officer of HMS ILLUSTRIOUS (a Majestic  Class Battleship) at the time of the 1911 Census.

Just seen my mistake by reading the record wrong, he joined in 1907 for 12 years not at 12. A record I read recently did have the actual age as well as DOB.  Thanks.

[Mick M]

On 15/05/2023 at 10:45, KizmeRD said:

See link below for details of his pre-1910 RN service…

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7071825

MB

I'm looking for the right Petty Officer badge, is this right please?

Was it worn on a peaked cap?

 

Edited 21 May , 2023 by Mick M
Pic defective.

[seaJane]

1 hour ago, Mick M said:

I'm looking for the right Petty Officer badge, is this right please?

Was it worn on a peaked cap?

 

This looks like the same thing on my grandfather's cap, early 1920s.

 

[KizmeRD]

Uniforms have adapted and changed over time, and so we really need to focus purely on what the uniform regulations were during the period of the Great War, which were different from Victorian naval uniform regulations and also from what subsequently became standard rig during the inter-war period.

As a stoker petty officer in accordance with Admiralty uniform Regulations (29th April, 1913) he would have worn Class 2 kit for ‘Men dressed as Seamen’ - better known as "square rig”, the traditional sailor's dress was worn by petty officers and lower ranks of the Military, Stoker and Artisan branch (except for shipwrights) ratings.

Number One Rig - Inspections/Ceremonial/Sunday’s in harbour…Blue Serge jumper with cuffs, gold badges and collar, serge trousers.

Number Two Rig - Ordinary everyday working dress…Blue Serge jumper (red badges) and collar, serge trousers.

Number Six Rig - in hot climates…White working jumper and duck trousers.

Number Nine Rig - for dirty work…Blue overalls (with red badges).

White cap covers were worn, at home, from 1st May through to 30th September.

Rate Badges, are worn on the upper left sleeve, as indicators of rank - see below for petty office rate badge, (gold in the example shown)

Distinguishing Badges denote branch and speciality and are worn on upper right sleeve. (For Stoker Petty Officers - Propeller, with star above and star below). Again, see example below (red in the example shown)

All badges worn on cloth and best serge dresses are to he embroidered in gold, those on other serge dresses in red worsted, and those on (tropical) white dress in blue cotton.

[KizmeRD]

3 hours ago, Mick M said:

I'm looking for the right Petty Officer badge, is this right please?

Was it worn on a peaked cap?

 

Further to my previous post - the answer to your question (keeping it simple) is NO, a Great War era Petty Officer Stoker would not have worn a peak cap, but would have been dressed in square rig (with round cap)similar to that shown below, but with the appropriate rate and branch badges.

Things changed in 1920 when all petty officers* (i.e. all branches) switched to fore and aft rig - as they do today.

Edit * all petty officers having attained four years seniority, that is (and at the same time CPO’s were issued with a new cap badge, similar to what they had been wearing previously, but now with a laurel wreath surrounding a slightly smaller fouled anchor - exactly as per the photo in seaJane’s post.

Ref. https://uniform-reference.net/insignia/rn/rn_ww1_ranks_enlisted_1.html

MB

 

Edited 21 May , 2023 by KizmeRD

[Mick M]

12 hours ago, seaJane said:

This looks like the same thing on my grandfather's cap, early 1920s.

 

Thank you was he a chief Petty Officer?

11 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

Further to my previous post - the answer to your question (keeping it simple) is NO, a Great War era Petty Officer Stoker would not have worn a peak cap, but would have been dressed in square rig (with round cap)similar to that shown below, but with the appropriate rate and branch badges.

Things changed in 1920 when all petty officers* (i.e. all branches) switched to fore and aft rig - as they do today.

Edit * all petty officers having attained four years seniority, that is (and at the same time CPO’s were issued with a new cap badge, similar to what they had been wearing previously, but now with a laurel wreath surrounding a slightly smaller fouled anchor - exactly as per the photo in seaJane’s post.

Ref. https://uniform-reference.net/insignia/rn/rn_ww1_ranks_enlisted_1.html

MB

 

That's put me on the right track thank you for your time.

[KizmeRD]

45 minutes ago, Mick M said:

Thank you was he a chief Petty Officer?

Charles Brown wasn’t, but seaJane’s GF evidently was.

MB

[seaJane]

1 hour ago, KizmeRD said:

Charles Brown wasn’t, but seaJane’s GF evidently was.

MB

He was indeed, KizmeRD. The date of the photo is not before the December quarter of 1920, as that was when he married and he's wearing his wedding ring in the picture.

[Mick M]

9 hours ago, seaJane said:

He was indeed, KizmeRD. The date of the photo is not before the December quarter of 1920, as that was when he married and he's wearing his wedding ring in the picture.

Thanks