rob1713 Posted 11 May , 2023 Share Posted 11 May , 2023 I have just acquired a group of photographs and amongst them was this image. On the back of it is written ‘ part of the crowd welcoming 1200 of our boys back from SW Africa 31/5/15’. I’m assuming its a town somewhere in South Africa but I can’t find a match on line for this hotel anywhere in the bigger towns. I’d like to know where it was taken, so any ideas or clues welcome. Kind Regards Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johntaylor Posted 11 May , 2023 Share Posted 11 May , 2023 Hi, unless someone recognises this straight away, there are a number of clues in the photo, but you'll need a higher quality scan to interpret them. There is a painted advert on the end gable of the Grand Hotel - it's faded but has some writing which may be helpful if it gives the name of a local beer company or something like that. Also the shop sign for L. Horwitz (to the right of the hotel as we look at it) has some smaller writing - not sure if that may reveal anything. There is also writing on the two pillars at the front of Joseph Martin & Co., and some company names on the placards on the left skyline. A high quality scan might give some more clues, and a business directory should confirm if you're in the right place. Good luck - it's a fantastic photo! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob1713 Posted 11 May , 2023 Author Share Posted 11 May , 2023 Hi John Thanks for your reply, unfortunately this is the best my scanner will produce, however I can tell you what these signs say using a magnifying glass on the print The advert on the side of the hotel is for Castle Brand Lager - which is a South African brewery Joseph Martin & Co, Market ? Commission Agents - I cant pin him down on line L Horwitz, Produce Buyer, Shipping & Commission Agent. With a nice painted adver for Almagam All British Tyres - Again no luck with this firm. A large building in the background top LH side of the image has a sign on its roof that looks to read J W JAGGER & CO, - According to google they had large offices in Port Elizabeth, Grahamstown & Uitenhage. But I cant find a Grand Hotel in these locations that looks like this one. So in summing up, I’m pretty sure its South Africa, but whereabouts, is a mystery. I’m hoping that someone from that neck of the woods might provide the answer.🤞 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johntaylor Posted 11 May , 2023 Share Posted 11 May , 2023 Hi, you've obviously looked into these possibilities already, and I agree the evidence points to Southern Africa. There's some very small writing here - did you manage to make out what it says? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob1713 Posted 11 May , 2023 Author Share Posted 11 May , 2023 Unfortunately its not much help, it reads ‘ Miles & Co Wool’ then possibly ‘Socks’ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 11 May , 2023 Share Posted 11 May , 2023 Maybe change thread title to draw in some south’s Africans ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob1713 Posted 11 May , 2023 Author Share Posted 11 May , 2023 33 minutes ago, Coldstreamer said: Maybe change thread title to draw in some south’s Africans ? That makes good sense, though Im not sure if I can do that without starting the thread again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johntaylor Posted 11 May , 2023 Share Posted 11 May , 2023 Interesting - it seems Miles & Co had a big presence in New Zealand: https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/OW18950124.2.109 John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob1713 Posted 11 May , 2023 Author Share Posted 11 May , 2023 1 minute ago, johntaylor said: Interesting - it seems Miles & Co had a big presence in New Zealand: https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/OW18950124.2.109 John Oh no 😳 another rabbit hole to explore😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 11 May , 2023 Share Posted 11 May , 2023 3 minutes ago, rob1713 said: Oh no 😳 another rabbit hole to explore😂 Just to the right of the Union Jack are a couple of men in lemon squeezer hats... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob1713 Posted 11 May , 2023 Author Share Posted 11 May , 2023 6 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: Just to the right of the Union Jack are a couple of men in lemon squeezer hats... There is actually quite a good selection of different military headgear on display Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 11 May , 2023 Share Posted 11 May , 2023 Yes there are slouch hats also. This is the Lemon squeezer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johntaylor Posted 11 May , 2023 Share Posted 11 May , 2023 The Castle Brand Lager sign does suggest Southern Africa - also there are one or two (though not many) black faces among the onlookers. The message refers to troops "back from S.W. Africa" (i.e. what is now Namibia), which was apparently captured by South Africa from the Germans in 1915. So I think South Africa is still the most likely setting. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob1713 Posted 11 May , 2023 Author Share Posted 11 May , 2023 Your right John but I think they were a big brewery who probably distributed their beer throughout Southern Africa, (Rhodesia, Namibia etc) The clue that convinced me it must be South Africa are these signs for J W JAGGER & Co, which is a South African firm. But as you say DByS, there do seem to be some NZ style hats and I dont think they served in SW Africa. I have a vague memory from a trip to the museum in Delville Wood that some the South African troops had a similar hat ? But I may (probably) be wrong. Thank you both and Coldstreamer for your suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johntaylor Posted 11 May , 2023 Share Posted 11 May , 2023 The answer is probably in here somewhere - but unfortunately you need library access to their databases: https://www.newsbank.com/libraries/colleges-universities/solutions/regional-collections/south-african-news-collections John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aconnolly Posted 11 May , 2023 Share Posted 11 May , 2023 Hi all -definitely not photographed in NZ. No formal role in SWA campaign other than handful of NZers who were living in Sth Africa pre-war. No large parades for returning troops in May 1915 either - NZ forces were all in Egypt/Gallipoli and a handful in Samoa Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johntaylor Posted 11 May , 2023 Share Posted 11 May , 2023 I'm afraid Miles & Co must have been a red herring - they probably had a presence in lots of countries throughout the Empire. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aconnolly Posted 11 May , 2023 Share Posted 11 May , 2023 Must be Sth Africa given the timing as well - so soon after campaign effectively won. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athelstan Posted 10 June , 2023 Share Posted 10 June , 2023 There is a potential clue in the date on the back of the photograph. 31 May 1915 is over a month before the campaign ended on 9 July 1915. The troops in the picture, therefore, must be amongst those sent home early. This can be narrowed down to the men of the Central and Southern Forces. After the Battle of Gibeon on 27 April 1915 the various mounted units involved were utterly exhausted and take no further part in the campaign. From 19 May 1915, some sources say 15 May, these men are shipped home to South Africa either by sea via Luderitzbucht or first to Windhoek and then via overland routes and rail to home. Units returning include the Natal Light Horse, Natal Mounted Rifles, Natal Carbineers, Imperial Light Horse, Umvoti Mounted Rifles and the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Mounted Rifles. Identify where these forces were drawn from and you have the possible location of the photograph. For the various Natal contingents the list of towns narrows down. The Umvoti Mounted Rifles for instance were drawn from Greytown. One example I know is from an account by a Natal Carbineer P.W. Rainier who took part in the Battle of Gibeon recording a rough homeward bound trip of 10 days to reach Durban by sea from Luderitzbucht in the hold of rusty old tramp steamer “with short rations to boot.” On top of that they were then kept in a camp in Pietermaritzburg for a week until some notable (not named) found the time to make them a valedictory address. So assuming they left around 19 May and a couple of days to reach Pietermaritzburg and you are close to 31 May. Alas a quick look at old photographs of Pietermaritzburg reveals no building resembling the one in the photograph. Actually Rainier’s account mention drinking a quick succession of whiskeys at the Horseshoe Hotel after the address so apologies this is a bit of a dead end but you can see the thinking around how to solve the puzzle. Anyway thought I’d share this alternative way of looking at this and thanks for sharing such a great photograph. Regards James W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob1713 Posted 20 June , 2023 Author Share Posted 20 June , 2023 Sorry about the delay in thanking you for your reply James. I will spend some time trying to link the units you mentioned to some more South African towns and check if there are/were any Grand Hotels therein. If I get lucky I’ll update the thread.👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athelstan Posted 28 June , 2023 Share Posted 28 June , 2023 Good luck with the search Rob and I will also keep an eye out for possible locations. regards james Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryTheGerman Posted 5 July , 2023 Share Posted 5 July , 2023 The photo definitely had not been taken in SWA. In the entire country such a building did not exist. Nowadays it is hard to believe how poorly developed the towns in SWA were. Windhoek was nothing but a village, and Swakopmund too. At the begin of 1916 there were only 11.000 inhabitants in Windhoek, including all the coloured and black natives who lived in their "Hartebees-huts" outside the village center. In Windhoek, the most prominent houses (besides the "Tintenpalast" (ink pacace) and the "Feste" (fort) stood along the main road named Kaiserstraße (nowadays Independence Ave.) - the "Gathemann-Haus" and its few neighbour houses. They are still existing. The hotels in the towns were rather small. And even shortly after the war in SWA had ended, there were by far not so many South African civilians in SWA as to be seen on the photo. Regards H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 13 July , 2023 Share Posted 13 July , 2023 On 11/05/2023 at 11:16, rob1713 said: I’m assuming its a town somewhere in South Africa but I can’t find a match on line for this hotel anywhere in the bigger towns. I’d like to know where it was taken, so any ideas or clues welcome. Rob With my thanks to Dr. Anne Samson, coordinator of the Great War in Africa Association, she has been able to identify the hotel’s location as being East London, South Africa. Image of the hotel taken from The Illustrated Guide to South Africa, incorporating the South African Hotel Guide. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aconnolly Posted 13 July , 2023 Share Posted 13 July , 2023 Outstanding work Steve & Dr Samson. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johntaylor Posted 14 July , 2023 Share Posted 14 July , 2023 That's stunning! Congratulations on some great detective work. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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