Was it all worth it?

[Chris_Baker]

Next year, it will  be a decade since the events of the centenary or centennial of the Great War began. How time flies by.

This will of course be largely a matter of opinion, but at this distance in time, what do GWF members think about the lasting legacy, or lack of, from the money that was spent on commemoration and the effort that went into it? All those local projects, as well as the higher-profile events. The IWM's First World War Centenary Partnership. Those organisations such as Birmingham's "Voices of War and Peace WW1 Engagement Centre". All those websites that received funding.

The government's "official history" of it all can be seen here

In your view, did these things make any difference in the long run to people's knowledge or appreciation of our history?

[PhilB]

In a word, CB, No!  It seems to be the fate of all our conflicts, internal or external, to fade into the history books where only a small percentage of enthusiasts will pursue them.

[Moonraker]

I see a few "silhouettes" here and there, including at Mortimer West End in North Hampshire, and a mural remains on a pub wall in Tilehurst, Reading. I suspect that  more recent conflicts (Afghanistan, Ukraine) are more in people's minds nowadays. And for young people 1914-18 must seem a very long time ago. Some (many) of us GWF oldies had grandparents who served in the Great War, so there was a personal, human connection there. Today there are very few survivors of WWII.

On a perhaps frivolous note, there seem to be fewer old military postcards of the period on the market, certainly in my specialism of Wiltshire, and perhaps the WWI centenary prompted people to start collecting them.

Yes, it was worth it, though I've always been sceptical about the "legacy" aspects of big events (such as the Olympic Games).  Something else soon comes along to capture the interest of the general public.

 

Edited 9 May , 2023 by Moonraker

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

I found one of the more interesting was when corvid hit us.

With no Anzac Day marches or gathering, instead each member had there own dawn service at there front driveway

While the main did end after a few years, I found many still do this, as its easier then going down to the dawn service at the local

For us older service men/women I found it better then the older system, which is fine for the younger people which now gather in large numbers

Of cause I do wonder how they will also do WWII, which is coming up, I know I won't be there and leave it for the young

S.B

[aconnolly]

Hi Chris - In Aus and NZ Anzac Day remains very special with larger crowds each year.  I suspect this is more to do with National identity than with the 2014 commemorations.  The actual money invested in NZ was probably small but did restore monuments etc.  These will be lasting 

Andrew

[Open Bolt]

There was lively discussion on IWM's Lives of the First World War on these topics

 

[Dragon]

16 hours ago, Chris_Baker said:

In your view, did these things make any difference in the long run to people's knowledge or appreciation of our history?

I have no way of knowing. In my town, such interest as there was seemed to move to a realisation that the generation who recalled the Second World War was rapidly diminishing. A project was conceived, dithered about, Covided, discussed, started and then it was found that almost everyone who might have been interviewed had died. So much for learning that personal testimonies have to be recorded now, not sometime on the future 'to do' list.

There was the usual book about the dead "lads", who may well not have been lads but skilled professionals or craftspeople or very experienced adults. How patronising. It seems to me that people and aspiring authors didn't learn that actually some of those engaged in the war lived, came home and did things, and some were women.

There are the usual anecdotes on local pages, usually without any triangulation whatsoever and often distorted by repetition. While we were never going to be a nation of archivists, especially as we have to pay a small fortune to access records, there don't seem to have been many attempts to help people learn how to use resources to develop the background to a tale. Such as exist seem to be on how to trace your family history, which is understandable and valuable, but perhaps people could have been encouraged to learn how to transfer their new skills to develop local history projects linked to the centenary.

And my personal absolute cringe-point - memorialisation. One one level there are new memorials to those whom "we remember" (we can't), as if memorials erected by those who actually knew the men aren't adequate. On a wholly different level is the proliferation of all sorts of decoration in the name of remembrance: thousands upon thousands of knitted poppies blanketing war memorials, civic structures, pubs, pillar boxes, church gates, archways, dog kennels and everything the community chooses, plastic poppies on every lamp post, vehicles' grilles grinning with red poppies lest we forget, painted buses, trains, lorries, taxis, refuse collection vehicles, dogs and anything else which moves. We are a nation of visual illiterates.

And still half the population can't spell "remembrance".

 

[Chris_Baker]

Belated thanks to all who replied to this thread. 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All, and Chris,

I personally agree with Andrew.

For Australia and New Zealand, Gallipoli, Palestine and the Western Front were a Coming of Age. The ANZACs made their mark on all Fronts, at Sea and in the Air.

As far as Remembrance and the Great War is concerned, for that reason, Anzac Day is probably more significant as such occasions in the so-called Mother Country.

All of my family served; my great-uncle was ALH and KiA Palestine. Grandfather was wounded (MC). My father emulated that on Crete (MC), off subject! 

Thanks for raising the question, Chris.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

 

[Michelle Young]

There seem to be a lot of lumps of rusty metal decaying on the Western Front, as a result of the centenary………..

[ianjonesncl]

The projects I was involved in it was definitely worth it. 

They brought together a lot of people from disparate organisations; civic dignitaries, county councils, serving military, veterans, churches, schools, youth organisations, family historians, military historians as well as individuals. In a lot of cases those relationships continued beyond the centenary period and spawned ongoing commemorations and support of events which continue to this day.

[Skipman]

I think it must have been worth it though not always to our tastes. A great deal of interest generated and perhaps documents photos and artefacts discovered recorded that might have been binned. Two local death pennies turned up a couple of RoH, one of which was key to identifying the last 5 men am researching.

 

Mike

[AOK4]

To be honest: I am extremely disappointed in the lack of serious new research. People keep recycling old research and views instead of looking for new ways of research. Especially on the German side, there are huge amounts of sources are waiting to be studied. But probably, they fear quite a few long accepted views would need to be seriously adjusted.

Jan

[chaz]

Jan

I think you will find , the old researchers have researched and have moved on. Ive been watching WFA talks on youtube. all seem to get good replies, but these are the older generation. The oldies talking presumably are happy with what they have presented and do not have time to research more.

The younger generation, Im not going to try to give ages, have other things on their minds. How many are going to visit cemeteries? travel to the Somme, when they can go to the Med.

The future of medal collecting is often debated.

back in the eighties, we started collecting, royal commemorative china, BOB china and limited edition prints from Robert Taylor, Terrance Cuneo and David Shepherd. Financially, we would be lucky to get near what we paid. I think, the modern view is live for the future, forget the past.

[Chris_Baker]

6 hours ago, AOK4 said:

To be honest: I am extremely disappointed in the lack of serious new research. ...

Completely agree. Despite what appears to be quite an industry of academic study of the war, I don't really see much new emerging on strategic, operational or tactical aspects. Maybe the military side of the war is just attracting attention now.

Edited 14 August , 2023 by Chris_Baker

[Borden Battery]

Distance Observations on Paper Entitled

House of Commons Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee, Lessons from the First World War Centenary, Thirteenth Report of Session 2017–19.

First comments on a government appointed committee of politicians reporting on themselves. 

In the realm of politics and public perception – the use of words is important.  Actions, if they do indeed happen after promises, is often secondary.  One must be cognizant of this principle when dealing with politicians and their bureaucrats.  “Yes, Minister” should come to mind.

The use of words in this British House of Commons report is as follows:

Public = 81 times

Government = 65 times

Success = 39 times

Research = 37 times

 

Remembrance = 21 times

Sacrifice = 6 times

Lions = Zero

Donkeys = Zero

 

England = 23 times

Scotland = 17 times

Ireland = 15 times

 

Minister = 14 times

Commonwealth = 8 times

 

Unknown = 5 times

Economic = 3 times

Futility = Zero

 

Australia = 7 times

India = 5 times

Canada = 4 times

New Zealand = 1 time

Newfoundland = 1 time

Separate from government reporting on itself, and with a far longer history, are the thousands of webmasters and Great War researchers (professional and amateur) and often networked through discussion forums  - which collectively - have created an immense wealth of information in an “Open Source” format of cooperative sharing and on a minuscule budget.  More in a second posting.

 

Borden Battery (Observations from Canada)

[moggs]

I understand where your original question came from, Chris, but I sense there is more to it.  Putting a value on personal experiences is fraught with issues.  The experts on Antiques Roadshow certainly understand that and I am always pleased when they say setting a value is pointless, especially when dealing with items from the wars.

For those of us with a personal connection, we will always have our own sense of worth.  For my part, researching my grandpa was essential to my existence.  Following up on links with his mates was mind blowing – seeing how they all ended up, if they came home, etc. was emotional.  Travelling to the battlefields, walking where they walked, fought, bled and died was an extraordinary experience.  And, having the ability to write about it all was a bonus.

This forum is one of the best legacies.  We can only hope that the next generation have the opportunity to appreciate the same.  Education plays a part although I doubt the passion from those who manage the curriculum would match any of us on the forum.

All the best

Jonathan

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Jonathan,

Very well stated; I agree entirely.

I have my Grandfather's medals (MC GVR, ED GVR Australia) and have researched his Life - otherwise known but largely neglected by the wider family...

Like yourself, it was an enriching experience for me, too! 

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Chris_Baker]

14 hours ago, moggs said:

I understand where your original question came from, Chris, but I sense there is more to it.  ...

No, not really. Just idle musing. It depends what you mean by value, of course, but I do not believe that (the collective) we got much lasting value from the public's money that was spent. Personal view and I fully accept that others will have views that differ.

Edited 15 August , 2023 by Chris_Baker

[Dragon]

I agree, Chris. In the area of France I visit most often (Alsace and the Vosges), there seems to have been a serious effort to help both the interested visitor and casual passer-by interpret what happened there. I've seen new interpretation boards which weren't there before, there are downloadable or paper tri-lingual booklets to accompany walks, attention to previously underrated battlefields (eg Altmattkopf, 1915), carefully designed new memorials reflecting all the participants (Altmattkopf again), even new visitor centres (HWK, le Linge). There is often a clear awareness of the need for strong European relationships to ensure peace in the future.

Admittedly my area isn't a former battlefield, thank goodness, but what do I see here? There were a few stickers on houses lived in by the dead. There are a couple of awful, sentimental, ugly new memorials. Our community-funded war memorial was sold, demolished and replaced by an unwanted commercial housing development. A private statue was purloined and plonked on a public plinth instead. 

In my town, if it didn't wear a crinoline and bonnet, or murder travellers in passing stagecoaches, it isn't history. Forget a lasting legacy of the Great War. We can't even focus on the Second while people still remember it. Maybe in a few years time someone will say, "Did we ever mark the anniversary of..." and the answer will be no.

Gwyn

[stevenbecker]

I must admit I was looking forward to the 2014-18 cellibrations, and hoped I live that long to see it.

And as a old WWI researcher, I was disappionted to a degree, but I may have set my sights to high.

Then again, it was as much as the present generation wanted

I will not see the next one, when the WWII starts in 20 years and maybe things will change?

I am sorry I try not to let the small stuff worry me any more, that's why I don't watch the news

Its for the young to worry about this,

S.B

 

 

 

[Borden Battery]

Was it Worth It?

For the generation of men and women in the Great War, including my Grandfather and his chums, it was a life defining event.  For my late Dad and Mom, the Second World War was similar – he was a Ft/Lt. in the RCAF and flew Halifax Mark VII bombers out of Yorkshire, while my late Mom built Hudson bombers in Canada.  My wife is named after an aunt who was killed while serving in the RCAF.  As such, these two events were direct and personal to both generations – and carried on to their children.

As the offspring of these two generations, the significance of Remembrance Day, the buddies coming over for a “snort” and talking in low tones, was absorbed.  After the war, and while my Dad was in the RCAF Auxiliary, our Santa Claus would arrive at the airbase in a B-25 bomber which buzzed the festively decorated hangar.  Our Santa did not need Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer – he already had a navigator and a bombardier – at least in the rationalized thinking of a then 5-year-old.

For our son, who is now married with children, these wars and Remembrance Day are somewhat detached.  He is aware of them but both his paternal Grandfather and Great-Grandfather had passed on before he was born.  He has seen the family heirlooms and artifacts of both wars, but it is not as personal.  He knows his Dad is keen about these things – and that is where it rests.

What was once a defining and common experience of two generations, is now an annual day’s holiday for most Canadians.  New immigrants are often perplexed by the Remembrance Day Poppy – those from India who had family involved in both wars, less so.  It is a normal progression to forget the past and to live in the present. Of course, the current Russian invasion of Ukraine has become a somewhat stark reminder of the twisted logic of nationalism and the human cost of war.  But again, much like watching the Vietnam War on the evening news, it is all still somewhat detached for most people.

Having said all, this, and realizing the scope of understanding within the general public has diminished; the depth of understanding of the small cadre of Great War researchers globally has increased dramatically over the past 25 years.  The Internet and digitization are key factors.

Stories, information, data and images which once might have been lost; are being preserved, catalogued and shared in an “Open Source” format.  The volumes of material on the Internet are increasing daily.

The Great War research, has become and will remain, a niche in the humanity's understanding of itself.  Nevertheless, an important niche.  Of course, the Great War is generally not a good “ice-breaker” at cocktail parties.

As long as the “Remembrance” continues, the efforts have been worth it.  Most government efforts are largely clumsy affairs – but this can be offset by the small but collective efforts of the few who wish to understand and recognize the sacrifices of a preceding generation.

Hoping this is not too verbose - but my thoughts on the topic.

 

Borden Battery

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Borden,

Well stated. 

Yes, I feel much the same. Grandfather, MC, ED; Father, MC, MiD.

My son - who is ironically a German - actually researches and collects to the Second War.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Petroc]

I'll afraid I can't really agree with the assertion that there is a "lack of serious new research" with regard to the Great War; a quick glance at the number of academic articles and theses produced on a wide-range of topics and subjects relating to the conflict over the last decade or so (many now available online, for instance via the academia.edu and j-stor sites or through individual university databases) clearly challenges such a claim. Indeed, the quality and value of some of this research was discussed during the last couple of months on the WFA podcast. Of course, whether or not the conduct of this research or the decision by an individual to undertake it itself a legacy of the centenary is another matter altogether.....

What is obvious to me, however, is the fact that, at least as far as the UK population is concerned, the centenary did b****er-all to change those embedded perceptions and beliefs that many of us with more than just a passing interest in the War find so frustrating; that it was nothing but futile, endless, unmitigated horror, with daily stupidity compounded by brutal executions, mass drowning in mud, and so on. For so many people, the Great War remains, quite simply, the worst, most awful war in human history (though I'm quite certain that a US Marine huddled at Khe Sanh or a Tommy struggling through the ruins at Cassino might well have had a very different view of whose exactly was the worst war). Try and have a meaningful, open discussion about Haig with a bloke down the pub, and see how soon into the conversation the B-words pop-up.....

So whilst the commemorative focus of many of the UK centenary events was understandable, I really do believe that the inability (or unwillingness) of those responsible for the organisation and implementation of these events at a national level to effectively challenge misconceptions through education was a massive missed opportunity.

 

Andy

[Chris_Baker]

Well observed, Andy.

For my part, I agreed with Jan's assertion about lack of new research as I believe he was mainly speaking of the situation in Belgium, France and Germany (he will no doubt correct me if I am wrong in this). It may just be because it is not so visible to me, but I just do not see the traction that academic study of the subject has gained in the UK. It's not zero, but it's not too widespread. We can all thinks of all sorts of reasons why that may be, but I feel it is a shame, nonetheless.

As far as education of the public is concerned, and whether the money spent on the centenary had any long-lasting effect, I pick out an example. Jim Grundy runs an absolutely stellar page on Facebook, all about the Gallipoli campaign. It is in-depth, well researched, quotes the sources, etc. One of the best such examples out there in social medialand. The responses and comments that it gathers make your eyes water. The sustained level of ignorance and prejudice is simply astonishing. Jim needs a medal in keeping his cool. Now, who knows who the respondees are: you might argue that anyone responding on a social media page is not representative of all and that may well be true, but they were interested enough to find and read a Gallipoli article in the first place.