Taking the Ridge: Anzacs and Germans at the Battle of Messines 1917 - Jeffrey McNeill

[JeffMcN]

Taking the Ridge: Anzacs and Germans at the Battle of Messines 1917 by Dr Jeffrey McNeill. Titipounamu Rifleman Press, Palmerston North, New Zealand

• A4, hardback. Colour and black & white photographs and maps, 376pp.

• NZ$79.99 incl. GST (New Zealand)

• AUS$65.00 excl. GST (Australia)

• €42,00 excl. VAT

Available at good bookshops in Australia and New Zealand and from the publisher at www.riflemanpress.nz

Taking the Ridge tells a fresh story of the iconic First World War Battle of Messines 1917. Opening with 19 mines exploding under the German positions and over inside five hours, the battle was a sorely needed victory for the British troops who took the Flanders ridge near Ypres and in which a fifth of all New Zealand’s soldiers who served overseas would have somehow participated. Largely overlooked today, this was New Zealand’s battle of the war. But victory was not as complete as claimed. Anzac losses were far from light and the afternoon’s gains hung in the balance. Men and their generals were all tested. Taking the Ridge provides the definitive account of the New Zealand, English 25th and Australian 3rd and 4th divisions’ actions as well as those of the German 3^rd and 4^th Bavarian divisions opposite in that battle and its aftermath at La Basse-Ville and Passchendaele in a year of grim trench warfare.

It casts a careful eye over many of the claims about the battle. Its careful analysis of casualty numbers debunks the myth that 10,000 Germans perished from the mine explosions. That analysis also raises questions about the importance and capability of Corps commanders on both sides and of 'bite and hold' tactics in 1917.

As the title suggests, this study focuses on the southern part of that battle, fought by II ANZAC Corps under General Sir Alexander Godley. It focuses on the New Zealand Division’s preparation for, and action during and after the battle, it also contextualises these actions with detailed accounts of the other II ANZAC divisions attacks in the morning by the 25^th Division and 3^rd Australian Division, and the 4^th Australian in the afternoon. In a marked difference from many Western Front battle accounts, it also draws extensively on German archival material and published accounts to tell the stories of officers and soldiers of the opposing 3^rd and 4^th Bavarian Divisions.

Taking the Ridge also outlines the detailed planning and training leading up to the battle. It also outlines the initial actions of the Battle of Messines 1914 and describes the actions of the Canadians at Messines in 1916 to explain how this part of the Western Front was shaped.

Taking the Ridge is as much an historical geography and it features many colour 3-dimensional computer generated maps to supplement the aerial photographs and battle. These were created by using modern LiDAR data to create a digital terrain model upon which were digitised trenches and troop dispositions and movements. The maps enable movements down to company level to be identified to provide an appreciation of the importance of topography in the fighting.

The Introduction chapter and other material relating to the Battle of Messines are also available on the website.

What the reviewers said:

“Clearly and professionally written and ably supported by contemporary accounts, notes and references, plus scores of photos, maps, tables and diagrams, make Taking the Ridge an impressive work, and a worthy addition to any military history enthusiast’s library” – Paul Skrebels, Sabretache

“There is little doubt that it is now the definitive account of New Zealanders and Australians in this critical Western Front action. The book is rich in detail and sheds new light on a significant event of World War I” – Glyn Harper, New Zealand Journal of History

“Jeff McNeill has achieved what many authors aspire to – a book so comprehensive on its subject that one can hardly imagine anything left to write. While perhaps not really aimed at a general readership, a light reading would still give enough for someone unfamiliar with Great War history to get a feel for one battle in that huge, distant conflict.” – Neil Frances, The Volunteers

 

[Dominique Cooreman]

Interesting to see my topic has been taken on....I published a book in 2016 La Basse-Ville 1917: New Zealand Voices from Flanders Fields. Based on a research of 12 years in New Zealand ànd Belgium where I am from. Lots of interviews and research in many forms, according to my habits as a court judge in Belgium. La Basse-Ville was forgotten, even in Belgium and I made it my mission to put it back on the maps.

Clearly Jeff McNeill has been consulting my book. I hope he also added my book in his biography....

If people want to contact me this is still possible via (removed by moderator) 

members can use private messages to contact Dominique 

 

[JeffMcN]

Hello Dominique

I did draw on your very helpful book and I can assure you that it is indeed cited appropriately in the reference list!

I agree with you that the fighting here has been overlooked and mostly forgotten, although you will find La Basse-Ville 1917 listed on a number of New Zealand war memorials: it has its own plaque out at Sumner, Christchurch, for example.

And I agree that the New Zealand Division's actions there need to be rehabilitated. The actions are interesting for several reasons. As I show in my redrawn map (below, in part), topography was critical. The actions were marked by mistakes, some at a very high level of command resulting in significant and unnecessary losses by the New Zealanders. The botched timing for the final and ultimately successful action as a feint for the Battle of Pilckem Ridge is mind-boggling. The first action at La Basse-Ville at the end of the Battle of Messines, was a decisive failure handed out to the 'elite' NZ Division by a very average German division that challenges the Dominion exceptionalism discourse.

By the way, I am in Europe at present and have some spare copies of 'Taking the Ridge' with me. Happy to sell you a copy post-free (and for anyone else in the EU!). Anyone in the UK who is interested - happy to send your copies, too, but I hear some horror stories about mail delivery from the EU so at your own risk. If interested, go to my website www.riflemanpress.nz to make the order.

Jeff

[Dominique Cooreman]

Just for your information, all posts send from outside EU, like UK or NZ will be taxed hugely. This is fairly new (since a few years). It just makes the item very expensive in my own experience... Whereabout are you in EU? 

[Dominique Cooreman]

I had a look at the map- nicely done- and observed you mention 'La' Gheer, while locally it is known as 'Le' Gheer....If you have a reprint Jeff....

[JeffMcN]

I - and the books - are in Belgium just now, so no problems with intra-EU distribution. I have sent several copies to the UK from NZ and they went to their destinations without any hindrance: UK readers can try their luck!

Thank you for the comment about the map. There is another showing the July attacks on La Basse-Ville in the book. It and the others were all based on a 'digital terrain model' or DTM using Flemish LiDAR data sets that go to 1 m2 resolution I recall. the LiDAR cuts through vegetation and buildings to give the underlying land contours. As a result, not visible on the maps in the book but on my computer screen you can still see individual shell holes and trenches running through Ploegsteert Wood. Knoll 60 that held up the Canterburys taking La Basse-Ville is very clearly seen (and on this map if you squint - better in the book).

Edited 14 August , 2023 by JeffMcN

[bierast]

I will consult this work with interest to see how the experiences of Saxon 40. Infanterie-Division are addressed, especially IR 104 (my great-great-uncle's regiment). Like its sister 24.ID, the 40.ID was so badly mauled by the month-long artillery preparation for the battle that they had to be relieved. Though 24.ID got out in time, the relief of 40.ID by 3.bID (and IR 104 by bIR 23) was not entirely complete when the mines went up, and I. Batl. / IR 104 (minus 1.MGK and with the addition of at least one gun of 3.MGK) was still in the rearward positions of the sector; a lot of them subsequently went down fighting alongside the unfortunate Bavarians.

As with every year / division covered in Fighting the Kaiser's War I spent an absurd amount of time getting events and locations straight in my head before writing the necessarily short summary articles which actually appear in the book. I am still quite proud of matching up the Heckenschloss (Lumm Farm) and Thümmelschloss (Fanny’s Farm) with their British designations, which made it a great deal clearer what had happened. 

I particularly hope that there is mention by name of the gallant Major Ferdinand Koch of IR 104, who would later collect his Komturkreuz 2. Klasse of the Saxon Militär-St. Heinrichs-Orden (see his citations for the Ritterkreuz and Komturkreuz 2. Klasse below) after returning post-war from British captivity.

[Dominique Cooreman]

Some interesting mentions....This is Hoch Deutch.... and I am not good enough in that language to understand everything.

It caught my eye that La Bassée is mentioned while probably La Basse-Ville was meant....That was an issue I encountered when starting my research in 2004.

I went to La Bassée (North of France) and was able to talk to some historians there: it was only in 1914-15 that the British went there.... certainly not in 1917 when Messines and LBVille took place.

In my book I wrote a chapter from a German perspective, based on letters that had been given to me by Belgian locals in 2004 around Ieper. They were written by an officer... Kurt Zehmisch.... Different perspectives broadens the mind...

I hope these little snippets help. Goodday to you all

Dominique

[bierast]

47 minutes ago, Dominique Cooreman said:

Some interesting mentions....This is Hoch Deutch.... and I am not good enough in that language to understand everything.

It caught my eye that La Bassée is mentioned while probably La Basse-Ville was meant....That was an issue I encountered when starting my research in 2004.

I went to La Bassée (North of France) and was able to talk to some historians there: it was only in 1914-15 that the British went there.... certainly not in 1917 when Messines and LBVille took place.

In this case, La Bassée is meant. Koch's battalion was sent south by XIX. Armeekorps from its usual regimental sector (Ploegsteert Wood) as army-level reinforcements during the Entente's autumn 1915 offensive, and committed to the fighting for the Hohenzollernwerk near Auchy-Les-Mines (at the northern end of the Loos battlefront). Koch was subsequently awarded the Ritterkreuz (knight's cross) of the Militär-St. Heinrichs-Orden on 1st November 1915 for his battalion's performance in this battle.

This qualified him for his subsequent award of the Komturkreuz 2. Klasse (commander's cross 2nd class) of the same order, which could only be granted to officers in command positions who had already earned the Ritterkreuz. It was quite impressive for a 'mere' major and battalion commander to win the higher award, showing just how highly his efforts at Messines (an absolute catastrophe for the Royal Saxon Army, as the staff of XIX. Armeekorps presided over it, and the corps commander General von Laffert died very soon after of a heart attack) were regarded.

Quote

In my book I wrote a chapter from a German perspective, based on letters that had been given to me by Belgian locals in 2004 around Ieper. They were written by an officer... Kurt Zehmisch.... Different perspectives broadens the mind..

I am familiar with Ltn. d. R. Zehmisch of IR 134 - we included a previously unpublished photo of him in our second book.

A.

Edited 8 September , 2023 by bierast

[Dominique Cooreman]

Thank you! especially re La Bassée...! The German perspective is indeed interesting.

[JeffMcN]

On 09/09/2023 at 01:10, bierast said:

I will consult this work with interest to see how the experiences of Saxon 40. Infanterie-Division are addressed, especially IR 104 (my great-great-uncle's regiment). Like its sister 24.ID, the 40.ID was so badly mauled by the month-long artillery preparation for the battle that they had to be relieved. Though 24.ID got out in time, the relief of 40.ID by 3.bID (and IR 104 by bIR 23) was not entirely complete when the mines went up, and I. Batl. / IR 104 (minus 1.MGK and with the addition of at least one gun of 3.MGK) was still in the rearward positions of the sector; a lot of them subsequently went down fighting alongside the unfortunate Bavarians.

As with every year / division covered in Fighting the Kaiser's War I spent an absurd amount of time getting events and locations straight in my head before writing the necessarily short summary articles which actually appear in the book. I am still quite proud of matching up the Heckenschloss (Lumm Farm) and Thümmelschloss (Fanny’s Farm) with their British designations, which made it a great deal clearer what had happened. 

I particularly hope that there is mention by name of the gallant Major Ferdinand Koch of IR 104, who would later collect his Komturkreuz 2. Klasse of the Saxon Militär-St. Heinrichs-Orden (see his citations for the Ritterkreuz and Komturkreuz 2. Klasse below) after returning post-war from British captivity.

Hello, The gallant Major Koch does get a mention - engaged in hand-to-hand tussle at Lumm Farm and I also quote Andrew Lucas and Jurgen Schmieschek (Fighting the Kaiser's War) as saying he survived to get his medal in a footnote. Hopefully that passes muster for you!

I. too, struggled with actions at both Lumm Farm and Thummelschloss. There is quite conflicting accounts of actions at both. I settle on different British companies taking different parts of the Lumm Farm complex. In the end, I decided that Thummelschloss was NOT Fanny's Farm and wrote accordingly. I agonised over this for some time, but all the German maps show Thummelschloss quite clearly as being around the corner from Fanny's Farm complex. And I have some three different German accounts and four New Zealand accounts of what happened there - all quite different, but all clearly referring to Thummelschloss! All true by those who wrote them.

BTW I have some copies of the book in Europe so reducing postage tremendously if you want a copy.

Cheers

Jeff

[JeffMcN]

On 09/09/2023 at 04:04, Dominique Cooreman said:

Some interesting mentions....This is Hoch Deutch.... and I am not good enough in that language to understand everything.

It caught my eye that La Bassée is mentioned while probably La Basse-Ville was meant....That was an issue I encountered when starting my research in 2004.

I went to La Bassée (North of France) and was able to talk to some historians there: it was only in 1914-15 that the British went there.... certainly not in 1917 when Messines and LBVille took place.

In my book I wrote a chapter from a German perspective, based on letters that had been given to me by Belgian locals in 2004 around Ieper. They were written by an officer... Kurt Zehmisch.... Different perspectives broadens the mind...

I hope these little snippets help. Goodday to you all

Dominique

More than a few battlefield tourists have washed up at La Basse-Ville instead of La Bassee and vice versa - including one august name, who drove himself to the wrong one and wondered why no one else was where he was, but my lips are sealed on who that person is!

[JeffMcN]

On 09/09/2023 at 04:04, Dominique Cooreman said:

Some interesting mentions....This is Hoch Deutch.... and I am not good enough in that language to understand everything.

It caught my eye that La Bassée is mentioned while probably La Basse-Ville was meant....That was an issue I encountered when starting my research in 2004.

I went to La Bassée (North of France) and was able to talk to some historians there: it was only in 1914-15 that the British went there.... certainly not in 1917 when Messines and LBVille took place.

In my book I wrote a chapter from a German perspective, based on letters that had been given to me by Belgian locals in 2004 around Ieper. They were written by an officer... Kurt Zehmisch.... Different perspectives broadens the mind...

I hope these little snippets help. Goodday to you all

Dominique

My book started out simply enough but grew considerably when a couple of things suddenly became very obvious: firstly and most relevant here, none of the New Zealand WWI histories have ever explored the German side of the story. Andy Macdonald does a good job at regimental level in his examination of Passchendaele, but he is the only one, and he does not go lower down to (not that he could given the focus of his book). Rather like describing a chess match when only mentioning the white pieces.

I spent a lot of time in the Munich war archives where there is a lot of extant material; the Freiburg Bundes archive was a treasure trove as it has the draft material for the German official history, including all of von Strube's correspondence, which is very enlightening. You get quite a different sense of the battle - and the humanity. In addition to individual NZ soldiers' accounts of their experience, I tap into some German ones. I also provide thumbnail sketches together with photos of a small group of IR104 soldiers from Markneukirchen who were all killed by artillery in the leadup to the battle. Grim stuff, actually. I also quote a couple of Dominique's cites of Zehmisch (acknowledged!), though in a slightly different translation in places.

And those interested in the Bavarians (who were not 'real' Bavarians, either!) bIR3 are placed down to Kompanie or even Zug level on the maps along with their NZ opposites.

Jeff

[bierast]

On 25/09/2023 at 09:39, JeffMcN said:

Hello, The gallant Major Koch does get a mention - engaged in hand-to-hand tussle at Lumm Farm and I also quote Andrew Lucas and Jurgen Schmieschek (Fighting the Kaiser's War) as saying he survived to get his medal in a footnote. Hopefully that passes muster for you

Thankyou, that's wonderful!  This is exactly the sort of thing we hoped for with our work in the field - raising awareness of the Saxon role in WW1 and making an ongoing contribution to the literature.

Quote

I. too, struggled with actions at both Lumm Farm and Thummelschloss. There is quite conflicting accounts of actions at both. I settle on different British companies taking different parts of the Lumm Farm complex. In the end, I decided that Thummelschloss was NOT Fanny's Farm and wrote accordingly. I agonised over this for some time, but all the German maps show Thummelschloss quite clearly as being around the corner from Fanny's Farm complex. And I have some three different German accounts and four New Zealand accounts of what happened there - all quite different, but all clearly referring to Thummelschloss! All true by those who wrote them.

I can't remember my thought process on this one exactly (it must have been around ten years ago now), but I do recall that I had a huge British map of the battle (with successive objective lines) and several German maps printed on paper... then went over the accounts in parallel looking at the maps until my eyes started to glaze over. My decision was probably based on there being no separate German name marked for the farm buildings, and deciding that they were a single complex as far as both sides were confirmed.

I can only plead that I had a lot of actions to cover for the book - your narrower focus has evidently allowed you to go into this in much greater depth, and assemble a much larger range of sources! If we ever get a third edition of Fighting the Kaiser's War I will naturally take the opportunity to improve the account of Messines a little and credit you in return.

Quote

BTW I have some copies of the book in Europe so reducing postage tremendously if you want a copy.

My hobby budget is very, very small at present - but I will be asked for birthday ideas soon, so will bear that kind offer in mind!

Incidentally, what's your view on the death of the unfortunate General von Laffert? I find it hard to believe that the Messines disaster did not directly contribute to his fatal heart attack so soon afterward. Here's his entry from a source we've been mining heavily over the past few years - the Dresdener Totengedenkbuch, a recently digitised wartime project to compile a roll of honour for the entire city of Dresden. As the clerk rightly queries in pencil at the top, Excellenz von Laffert was neither born in nor resident in the city... but luckily he ended up recorded in the Totengedenkbuch files anyway. It is stated there that his death was the consequence of "an affliction originating in the field".

[JeffMcN]

1 hour ago, bierast said:

Thankyou, that's wonderful!  This is exactly the sort of thing we hoped for with our work in the field - raising awareness of the Saxon role in WW1 and making an ongoing contribution to the literature.

I can't remember my thought process on this one exactly (it must have been around ten years ago now), but I do recall that I had a huge British map of the battle (with successive objective lines) and several German maps printed on paper... then went over the accounts in parallel looking at the maps until my eyes started to glaze over. My decision was probably based on there being no separate German name marked for the farm buildings, and deciding that they were a single complex as far as both sides were confirmed.

I can only plead that I had a lot of actions to cover for the book - your narrower focus has evidently allowed you to go into this in much greater depth, and assemble a much larger range of sources! If we ever get a third edition of Fighting the Kaiser's War I will naturally take the opportunity to improve the account of Messines a little and credit you in return.

My hobby budget is very, very small at present - but I will be asked for birthday ideas soon, so will bear that kind offer in mind!

Incidentally, what's your view on the death of the unfortunate General von Laffert? I find it hard to believe that the Messines disaster did not directly contribute to his fatal heart attack so soon afterward. Here's his entry from a source we've been mining heavily over the past few years - the Dresdener Totengedenkbuch, a recently digitised wartime project to compile a roll of honour for the entire city of Dresden. As the clerk rightly queries in pencil at the top, Excellenz von Laffert was neither born in nor resident in the city... but luckily he ended up recorded in the Totengedenkbuch files anyway. It is stated there that his death was the consequence of "an affliction originating in the field".

Your book was very helpful, I have to say. However, I note and comment in my book on the views of soldiers from the other German kingdoms, regarding the Saxons! A clear stereotypical pecking order is apparent, the Saxons as 'effete' and not particularly enthusiastic about fighting a war. Everyone hated the Prussians, the 'old' Bavarians looking down on the 'new' (ie Palatinate) Bavarians... One NZer wrote: "The Germans had put up a notice during the night: ‘Don’t shoot — Saxons in’, and showed their genuineness by showing themselves openly at intervals during the day, and never making any attempt to leave their trenches." They also nicely advised when they were leaving to be replaced by 'Bavarians or Prussians'!

Of course there were similar parochial views the other side of no Man's Land. Some more deserving than others.
Thanks for the tip about the Totengedenkbuch files that I will explore at some stage - I presume these are fairly recent? I spent some time in the Dresden archives but the results were meagre, albeit informative. However, reading handwriting is always a little challenging, I struggle with some of the accounts written in English with blunt pencils on this paper. And it took me long enough to learn to read Fraktur script - I reasoned that I would be writing for the bicentenary if I were also to learn to read Suterlin. I had to leave a lot of possibly very useful handwritten material there and at Munich.
One can never be conclusive but I would strongly support the suggestion that the disaster of Messines for the Germans - 'one of the worst tragedies of the war' as von Kuhl described it, was a direct contributory cause for von Laffert's heart attack and death. Probably not the healthiest at the start, the horror of what he was part of  could well have tipped his stress levels.
 

[JeffMcN]

3 hours ago, bierast said:

Thankyou, that's wonderful!  This is exactly the sort of thing we hoped for with our work in the field - raising awareness of the Saxon role in WW1 and making an ongoing contribution to the literature.

I can't remember my thought process on this one exactly (it must have been around ten years ago now), but I do recall that I had a huge British map of the battle (with successive objective lines) and several German maps printed on paper... then went over the accounts in parallel looking at the maps until my eyes started to glaze over. My decision was probably based on there being no separate German name marked for the farm buildings, and deciding that they were a single complex as far as both sides were confirmed.

I can only plead that I had a lot of actions to cover for the book - your narrower focus has evidently allowed you to go into this in much greater depth, and assemble a much larger range of sources! If we ever get a third edition of Fighting the Kaiser's War I will naturally take the opportunity to improve the account of Messines a little and credit you in return.

My hobby budget is very, very small at present - but I will be asked for birthday ideas soon, so will bear that kind offer in mind!

Incidentally, what's your view on the death of the unfortunate General von Laffert? I find it hard to believe that the Messines disaster did not directly contribute to his fatal heart attack so soon afterward. Here's his entry from a source we've been mining heavily over the past few years - the Dresdener Totengedenkbuch, a recently digitised wartime project to compile a roll of honour for the entire city of Dresden. As the clerk rightly queries in pencil at the top, Excellenz von Laffert was neither born in nor resident in the city... but luckily he ended up recorded in the Totengedenkbuch files anyway. It is stated there that his death was the consequence of "an affliction originating in the field".

As for Thummelschloss... There are still some aspects of the NZ attack on it that do not quite square up for me on it! It seems that the Stokes mortar team was to play an important role, but even so, it is hard to work out if the accounts all relate to Thummelschloss or to both it and Fanny's Farm, or whether they, too, conflate the two!

[bierast]

21 hours ago, JeffMcN said:

Your book was very helpful, I have to say. However, I note and comment in my book on the views of soldiers from the other German kingdoms, regarding the Saxons! A clear stereotypical pecking order is apparent, the Saxons as 'effete' and not particularly enthusiastic about fighting a war. Everyone hated the Prussians, the 'old' Bavarians looking down on the 'new' (ie Palatinate) Bavarians... One NZer wrote: "The Germans had put up a notice during the night: ‘Don’t shoot — Saxons in’, and showed their genuineness by showing themselves openly at intervals during the day, and never making any attempt to leave their trenches." They also nicely advised when they were leaving to be replaced by 'Bavarians or Prussians'!

Of course there were similar parochial views the other side of no Man's Land. Some more deserving than others.

Attitudes to the Saxons are of course a favourite subject of mine. The regimental history of Württemberg RIR 120 is really good on this, as Oberst Fromm was hilariously opinionated and expresses himself quite freely on the relationship between the two contingents! Whilst he broadly agrees with the stereotype you mention, he also claims that on a logistical level the Saxon-led 58.ID worked a lot better than the purely Württemberg divisions with which his regiment also served... 

Intra-Bavarian hostility is a new one on me! I was quite ignorant of the 'old' and 'new' Bavarian distinction. Internal regional rivalries are not something we've come across in our own area of interest, which is really quite surprising given that there were definitely some significant regional differences - a few years ago Jürgen finally came across a photo with a dugout inscription in the Sorbian (sorbisch) language, which must have been spoken by quite a few men in e.g. IR 103. This ethnic minority even had a different religion (Roman Catholic, like the royal family), but we've never seen the slightest hint of any friction with other varieties of Saxon.

Quote

Thanks for the tip about the Totengedenkbuch files that I will explore at some stage - I presume these are fairly recent? I spent some time in the Dresden archives but the results were meagre, albeit informative. However, reading handwriting is always a little challenging, I struggle with some of the accounts written in English with blunt pencils on this paper. And it took me long enough to learn to read Fraktur script - I reasoned that I would be writing for the bicentenary if I were also to learn to read Suterlin. I had to leave a lot of possibly very useful handwritten material there and at Munich.

The digitisation of the Totengedenkbuch began in 2021, though before that we were already working with the raw files (just going through looking for mention of units of relevance to what we were studying at the time). I struggle with old German handwriting myself, but fortunately Jürgen is excellent at deciphering it!

Project description: https://wiki.genealogy.net/Totengedenkbuch_Dresden/Projektbeschreibung
Online search form: https://des.genealogy.net/TgbDresden/search/index

Quote

One can never be conclusive but I would strongly support the suggestion that the disaster of Messines for the Germans - 'one of the worst tragedies of the war' as von Kuhl described it, was a direct contributory cause for von Laffert's heart attack and death. Probably not the healthiest at the start, the horror of what he was part of  could well have tipped his stress levels.

I'm sure he would have been living down this disaster for the rest of his career if he had lived. Many would have blamed him personally, and perhaps he blamed himself - for not pursuing counter-mining more aggressively, perhaps even for not evacuating the Wytschaetebogen as untenable...
 

[JeffMcN]

3 minutes ago, bierast said:

Attitudes to the Saxons are of course a favourite subject of mine. The regimental history of Württemberg RIR 120 is really good on this, as Oberst Fromm was hilariously opinionated and expresses himself quite freely on the relationship between the two contingents! Whilst he broadly agrees with the stereotype you mention, he also claims that on a logistical level the Saxon-led 58.ID worked a lot better than the purely Württemberg divisions with which his regiment also served... 

Intra-Bavarian hostility is a new one on me! I was quite ignorant of the 'old' and 'new' Bavarian distinction. Internal regional rivalries are not something we've come across in our own area of interest, which is really quite surprising given that there were definitely some significant regional differences - a few years ago Jürgen finally came across a photo with a dugout inscription in the Sorbian (sorbisch) language, which must have been spoken by quite a few men in e.g. IR 103. This ethnic minority even had a different religion (Roman Catholic, like the royal family), but we've never seen the slightest hint of any friction with other varieties of Saxon.

The digitisation of the Totengedenkbuch began in 2021, though before that we were already working with the raw files (just going through looking for mention of units of relevance to what we were studying at the time). I struggle with old German handwriting myself, but fortunately Jürgen is excellent at deciphering it!

Project description: https://wiki.genealogy.net/Totengedenkbuch_Dresden/Projektbeschreibung
Online search form: https://des.genealogy.net/TgbDresden/search/index

I'm sure he would have been living down this disaster for the rest of his career if he had lived. Many would have blamed him personally, and perhaps he blamed himself - for not pursuing counter-mining more aggressively, perhaps even for not evacuating the Wytschaetebogen as untenable...
 

Laffert does bear responsibility, primarily, I would argue for dropping the ball at the critical moment. Primarily for not pushing against the artillery officers, led by von Ilse at army level, who were confident that they could stop an attack provided British artillery not increase - which they did. Not helped by von Ilse transferring out of 4th Army just before British artillery superiority was starting to be recognised. Von Kuhl had strongly argued for withdrawing off the ridge a good month earlier...

[JeffMcN]

bID3 recruited from Rheinland Palatinate, which had been French for some time until given to Bavaria following the Napoleonic Wars. Very different to Old Bavariao - drinking wine, half protestant... Their commander, von Weninger, recognised their different temperament, another divisional commander blamed its fourth regiment that was transferred when the bID 3 was triangled, for its defeat, essentially, for a lack of Bavarian fortitude.

[bierast]

22 hours ago, JeffMcN said:

Laffert does bear responsibility, primarily, I would argue for dropping the ball at the critical moment. Primarily for not pushing against the artillery officers, led by von Ilse at army level, who were confident that they could stop an attack provided British artillery not increase - which they did. Not helped by von Ilse transferring out of 4th Army just before British artillery superiority was starting to be recognised. Von Kuhl had strongly argued for withdrawing off the ridge a good month earlier...

I agree, that's entirely fair. Something I do find surprising though is that Laffert's Generalstabschef, Oberst Felix Reichardt, not only escaped any opprobrium but even received the Komturkreuz II. Klasse of the MStHO for his crisis management at Messines (he had already been awarded the Ritterkreuz of the MStHO as commander of EIR 23 in the Vosges)! His award was dated 3rd July 1917 as well, so it's entirely likely that Laffert heard about it before his death too. 

Quote

bID3 recruited from Rheinland Palatinate, which had been French for some time until given to Bavaria following the Napoleonic Wars.

Ah now, this is something that definitely has no Saxon equivalent... gaining territory in wars was not a familiar experience for Saxony!

[aengland]

Jeff.   How much is the book when sending it from Europe (to Britain) please?

Andrew

 

 

[JeffMcN]

On 01/10/2023 at 02:52, aengland said:

Jeff.   How much is the book when sending it from Europe (to Britain) please?

Andrew

 

 

Hi Andrew, Postage free at this stage. You will have to deal to any VAT/import admin costs. I hear differing stories about that, so far I have not had any problems sending from New Zealand to UK. For orders go to my website www.riflemanpress.nz for ordering details.

Jeff

€42,00 / 36.00 GBP

[JeffMcN]

On 29/09/2023 at 09:42, bierast said:

I agree, that's entirely fair. Something I do find surprising though is that Laffert's Generalstabschef, Oberst Felix Reichardt, not only escaped any opprobrium but even received the Komturkreuz II. Klasse of the MStHO for his crisis management at Messines (he had already been awarded the Ritterkreuz of the MStHO as commander of EIR 23 in the Vosges)! His award was dated 3rd July 1917 as well, so it's entirely likely that Laffert heard about it before his death too.

Ah now, this is something that definitely has no Saxon equivalent... gaining territory in wars was not a familiar experience for Saxony!

I missed Reichardt. On the other hand, if I had gone further into general staffs of all the protagonists, the book would be even bigger, and it is in truth already too big! And not so sure I want to write another, at least not on Messines! But seriously, I think that would make a very interesting study.

No, Saxony does not tend to display expansionist tendencies!

 

[aengland]

8 hours ago, JeffMcN said:

Hi Andrew, Postage free at this stage. You will have to deal to any VAT/import admin costs. I hear differing stories about that, so far I have not had any problems sending from New Zealand to UK. For orders go to my website www.riflemanpress.nz for ordering details.

Jeff

€42,00 / 36.00 GBP

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Jeff

So now I am confused....  when I try and pay on the website the amount shows £54, a tad more than the price you have quoted earlier.  Help please!

Thanks

Andrew

[JeffMcN]

2 hours ago, aengland said:

Hi Jeff

So now I am confused....  when I try and pay on the website the amount shows £54, a tad more than the price you have quoted earlier.  Help please!

Thanks

Andrew

Don't pay on the website - that is for NZ orders only. And that price is ex-NZ postage. Email me on sales@riflemanpress.nz with your name and mailing address etc and I will invoice you directly, either via PayPal (which takes a cut) or by straight International bank transfer (my bank uses Western Union). Let me know which one suits you - some people are twitchy about WU, though it done through my bank and I have had no problems so far. Does that help? Jeff