Unusual collar badges Wiltshire Regiment

[Ski]

Good morning all,

I wonder if anyone has come across these collar badges before and/or could Identify them for me please?

Although the soldier appears to be Wiltshire Regiment, due to his cap badge, the collar badges aren't?

Many thanks 

Lee

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, Ski said:

Good morning all,

I wonder if anyone has come across these collar badges before and/or could Identify them for me please?

Although the soldier appears to be Wiltshire Regiment, due to his cap badge, the collar badges aren't?

Many thanks 

Lee

Well it’s the biggest insignia mystery that I’ve encountered for quite a while Lee.  The cap badge certainly looks like that of the Wiltshire Regiment and, utilising a process of logical elimination, I’d say the following:

1.  According to Colin Churchill’s seminal work on collar badges the young man is neither, a regular, nor Territorial Force, as no such collar badge is listed.

 2.  I can find no record of a Wiltshire Volunteer Training Corps (VTC), or the Wiltshire Volunteer Battalion that they eventually became, wearing such a collar badge.

3.  I cannot find any Junior Division Officer Training Corps (college cadet corps) in Wiltshire wearing that cap badge, or collar badge.

4.  As a wild card there was a Wiltshire Regiment 1st Volunteer Cadet Battalion that received official “recognition” under Army Order 173 of 1918.  It was subsequently “affiliated” to the 4th Battalion Wiltshire Regiment under Army Order 116 of 1920.  I suppose it’s not impossible that your photo relates to that cadet unit and that the collar badge is associated.  However, I’ve scoured my library and can find nothing remotely similar.

I can only suggest that you try to consult with the Rifles (Berkshire and Wiltshire) Museum in the Wardrobe, Salisbury, Wiltshire.

If you have the original print it would help significantly if you could do a high psi scan focusing on the head and neck of your subject to get the best possible view of the collar badge.  It looks something like a wheel or rose, but is insufficiently clear to be sure.

Forum members @Moonraker and @Blue Dragoon might find this conundrum of interest too.

Edited 1 May , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Ski]

Thanks for the detailed reply. I was working along the same lines as you in that it's some sort VTC or OTC affiliation but couldn't find anything online to corroborate.

I can't even find any similar set-ups on any other studio photos online to different regiments

I'm afraid I don't have the original copy as I'd taken it from online. 

Thanks again 

Lee

 

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Ski said:

Thanks for the detailed reply. I was working along the same lines as you in that it's some sort VTC or OTC affiliation but couldn't find anything online to corroborate.

I can't even find any similar set-ups on any other studio photos online to different regiments

I'm afraid I don't have the original copy as I'd taken it from online. 

Thanks again 

Lee

 

Hello Lee,

Thanks for your reply.  I’ve been through pretty much all the published resources for insignia and it simply doesn’t appear anywhere.  The sponsored (non college) cadet battalion is my best guess, and less well researched than the insignia of the VTC and OTC.

If you could try to get a closer image of the collar badge based on the picture that you have it might help to make out a little better what it is meant to represent.

 

 

Edited 1 May , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[max7474]

Considering the pocket watch chain I doubt it is a cadet batalion.

[Gareth Davies]

13 hours ago, Ski said:

Good morning all,

I wonder if anyone has come across these collar badges before and/or could Identify them for me please?

Although the soldier appears to be Wiltshire Regiment, due to his cap badge, the collar badges aren't?

Many thanks 

Lee

Have you spoken with The Wardrobe?

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, max7474 said:

Considering the pocket watch chain I doubt it is a cadet batalion.

He’s not that young either, as soon as a cadet reached 18 though he was obliged to enlist with the TF.  He looks old enough to possess a watch even if it was given to him.  It was merely a best guess based on the other factors really, a process of eliminating the other options and seeing what’s left.  What is your reasoned alternative max?

Edited 1 May , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Gareth Davies]

He appears to have a wedding ring.

[mancpal]

Just beat me to it Gareth

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, Gareth Davies said:

He appears to have a wedding ring.

Well spotted Gareth.  It gets more curiouser and curiouser!

Edited 1 May , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Ski]

Thanks all,

I haven't approached "the wardrobe" yet. 

Although the badges aren't clear, they are quite distinctive so it would be interesting to see they appear on any  photos the museum holds.

Best

Lee

[CorporalPunishment]

He appears to have a singular "1" on his left epaulette instead of a Wiltshire title unless it's a blob on the photo.       Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, CorporalPunishment said:

He appears to have a singular "1" on his left epaulette instead of a Wiltshire title unless it's a blob on the photo.       Pete.

A number without T might suggest a Wiltshire Volunteer Regiment (ex VTC), as the army’s regimental cap badges were authorised for issue right at the end of the war and the collar badge might be discrete to the Volunteers alone.  Unfortunately I’ve not been able to find an image of Wiltshire VTC insignia to compare.

There is good information regarding Wiltshire VTC here:  

 

Edited 1 May , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Ski]

On 01/05/2023 at 23:51, FROGSMILE said:

A number without T might suggest a Wiltshire Volunteer Regiment (ex VTC), as the army’s regimental cap badges were authorised for issue right at the end of the war and the collar badge might be discrete to the Volunteers alone.  Unfortunately I’ve not been able to find an image of Wiltshire VTC insignia to compare.

There is good information regarding Wiltshire VTC here:  

 

I think thats a pretty good theory, it would just be great to get another photo for confirmation.

 

Thanks again all for your contributions.

Cheers

Lee

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Ski said:

I think thats a pretty good theory, it would just be great to get another photo for confirmation.

 

Thanks again all for your contributions.

Cheers

Lee

I’m sorry that I could not find out more, it’s been most frustrating and I’m as intrigued as you.  I can only urge that you seek advice at the Wardrobe Museum, but it will need to be with someone who is aware (knowledgeable) concerning the options that we’ve tentatively explored.

Edited 3 May , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Ski]

Hi all,

So, I now have the original image and have taken a close up photo. I've also drawn my interpretation using a magnifying glass. Would be interested in anyone's thoughts?

[FROGSMILE]

It’s an absolutely fascinating badge and I think you’ve done a great job of describing it.  I’ve never seen anything of its like before and am really surprised to see it.  Given that collar badges were expressly forbidden at that time by regulation and so certainly in a regular unit an NCO would haul up a man in breach, I think it likely that the sitter for the portrait has put them on under his own initiative just for the purposes of the photograph.

I concur that there appears to be the image of a man in the centre and an enamelled circlet around him.  I’m wondering if it might be something religious, something medical, something connected with athleticism/sport, something connected with abstention from alcohol, or something to do with life saving.  The latter two in particular have been permitted as medallions worn on uniform in the past.  It doesn’t look as if they are facing pairs so they might be two individual lapel pins simply worn as a pair by the wearer.

Edited 12 May , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Ski]

Thanks for the reply. My thoughts were some sort of religious badge or a badge given by a town or employer to early volunteers. 

I also have a photograph of the same man in hospital blues wearing one of the badges on his lapel although it isn't as clear. As such whatever the badge is it certainly has some significance to the wearer.

Thanks again 

 

[mancpal]

A wild guess, could it be a Masonic badge?

Simon

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Ski said:

Thanks for the reply. My thoughts were some sort of religious badge or a badge given by a town or employer to early volunteers. 

I also have a photograph of the same man in hospital blues wearing one of the badges on his lapel although it isn't as clear. As such whatever the badge is it certainly has some significance to the wearer.

Thanks again 

 

That really confirms it’s importance, I wonder if it’s a religious organisation.  I think a search of WW1 civilian lapel pins might be the way to go.  I’ve noticed even his tie isn’t the regulation issue red one.  I wonder if that’s connected to the same organisation.  This enclosed badge is a similar shape and from the same period, which makes me think we’re maybe heading in the right direction.

Edited 12 May , 2023 by FROGSMILE