"Winged Sabres"/ 20 RFC Squadron/ query

[FionaBam]

https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-book-reviews/winged-sabres-one-of-the-rfc-s-most-decorated-squadrons/

Does this book about 20 Squadron  RFC by Robert A Sellwood include the pre-posting to France in June/July  1916- that is ,when the Squadron was in training in England?

It looks a fascinating book but my interest lies in 20 Squadron 's infancy January to April 1916.

Thank you.

Later- error above 

now that I have read the Squadron Operations Book ( NA Kew digitised) that 20 RFC were formed 01.01.1916 and on 16.01.1916 they moved out to France and started operations . So their training was 16 days long it seems. 

 

Edited 3 May , 2023 by FionaBam
To correct a factual error of mine

[josquin]

Pages 1 through 26 of Sellwood's excellent book give a detailed account of 20 Squadron's early history from 1 September 1915 through the end of April, 1916.

Josquin

[FionaBam]

54 minutes ago, josquin said:

Pages 1 through 26 of Sellwood's excellent book give a detailed account of 20 Squadron's early history from 1 September 1915 through the end of April, 1916.

Josquin

Thank you Josquin. That's very helpful information for me.

Doubting I have identified which RFC Squadron my grandfather was seconded to ....so will hold off buying this book for now tempting as it is.

 

Cheers 

Fiona 

[FionaBam]

1 hour ago, josquin said:

Pages 1 through 26 of Sellwood's excellent book give a detailed account of 20 Squadron's early history from 1 September 1915 through the end of April, 1916.

Josquin

P.s.i succumbed! £9 including P & P on Abe books - who could resist !

[josquin]

If you list your grandfather's name, including forenames, and birthdate/place, I will see what I can learn about his squadron postings.

Josquin

[FionaBam]

1 hour ago, josquin said:

If you list your grandfather's name, including forenames, and birthdate/place, I will see what I can learn about his squadron postings.

Josquin

That's very kind of you indeed. Its proving difficult as he was not Gazetted ( found reason for this in Jefford's  book Observers & Navigators) and having been guided by an expert as to how to find him in the corresponding RFC Brigade , I am just confused as nothing matches up 

Frederick Edward Arthur Bambridge 

Born 7.3.1897 in London.

I have gathered a lot of information about his WW1 service -R.F.A. Bombardier 81st Bn , then commissioned to 2nd Lieutenant in 6th Wiltshire . 58th Brigade 19th Division.

Army lists show Freddy in 6th then 8th then 6th Wiltshire serving in France .His ADM states January 1916 to April 1916 RFC and his personnel file in RNAS ( see explanation below) states the same and  adds "Observer".

To explain this bit -  His WO95 Army file at KewNA   shows Freddy was sent back to England late June 1916 sick . In October 1916 he Was told to honourably relinquish his commission as  he was found medically unfit for service .

The following year 1917 ,Freddy is back and in the RNAS,  trained as a pilot July 1917 to November, posted to Dunkirk Dec 1917 in RNAS 2 Squadron. Shot down 22 3 1918 and returned to England.  Again had to relinquish commission due to being found medically unfit for service. 

His  Casualty Card has lots of abbreviations I dont understand nonetheless no RFC Squadron number .

Thank you !

 

[FionaBam]

4 hours ago, josquin said:

If you list your grandfather's name, including forenames, and birthdate/place, I will see what I can learn about his squadron postings.

Josquin

Heres the ADM- summary of war service .

 

[josquin]

Fiona,

I noticed from your other posts that you have accessed all of the important service records at the National Archives (WO 339, AIR 76, ADM-273)

so I found that two critical records were missing (RAF Casualty Form) or minimal (AIR 76).  The absence of the Casualty Form (available on a

separate website) is unfortunate because such forms are often the most detailed record for posting dates, promotions, and similar data.

The AIR 76 record is quite unhelpful since it gives no indication of his RFC service in 1916.  The Army Officer Service Record (WO 339/41016)

would be the only remaining record for any assignment to the RFC, but these records often do not provide the details for RFC postings.

I could not locate a 1916 any record for RFC service for Frederick in 1916.  The only mention for such service is the ADM-273 notation for

"RFC January to April 1916."  While the London Gazette lists his commission as Temporary 2nd Lieutenant with the Wiltshires as dated

10 April 1915 (L.G. 29122/3455, 9 April 1915 & 29127/3587, 13 April 1915, there are no Gazettings for the RFC or RNAS, and the only RAF

citation is for relinquishing his commission: F.E. Bambridge, relinquishing commission on account of ill-health, and are permitted to retain their rank

(caused by wounds), dated 5 March 1919 (L.G. 31212/3020, 4 March 1919). 

     I suspect that the problem here is that Frederick was attached to the RFC from the Wiltshires as a Probationary Observer but did not remain

with the RFC long enough to be seconded or to qualify as a Graded Observer of Flying Officer: Observer.  Two sources of evidence for this are

his Medal Index Card (WO 372/1/214232) that lists his service as:  RFA 39284, no rank given; Wiltshire Regiment, 2nd Lieutenant; RNAS, no rank

given; RAF, Lieutenant.  The MIC says he went to France on 28 October 1915 whilst ADM-273 says September, 1915.  The second significant

finding is the notice in the Gazette announcing the relinquishing of his Army commission: he is listed as "Wilts. R. 2nd Lt. F.E.A. Bambridge,

relinquishes his commission on account of ill-health, dated 13 October 1916 (L.G. 29781/9846, 12 October 1916).  Note that he is listed as an

officer with the Wiltshires rather than the RFC.  This indicates, I believe, that he was attached to the RFC, possibly for several months, but the

transfer was never finalized (seconde  d) and is not recorded in any existing documents.  He is not listed in the comprehensive 20 Squadron

roll in Sellwood's book.  ADM-273 confirms that he joined the RNAS on 22 July 1917, received his flight training at Cranwell, was appointed

a Temporary Probationary Flying Officer on 17 October 1917, and was posted to 2 Naval Squadron on 3 December 1917, at the Royal Naval

Air Station, Dunkirk.  His AIR 76 shows no squadron or other postings after his wounding on 22 March 1918, his hospitalization in England on 3 April 1918,

and his classification as *unfit for any duty" dated 12 February 1919.  His RNAS performance ratings, on the reverse side of his ADM-273, are

uniformly excellent.  I hope this was helpful.

Josquin

[FionaBam]

2 hours ago, josquin said:

Fiona,

I noticed from your other posts that you have accessed all of the important service records at the National Archives (WO 339, AIR 76, ADM-273)

so I found that two critical records were missing (RAF Casualty Form) or minimal (AIR 76).  The absence of the Casualty Form (available on a

separate website) is unfortunate because such forms are often the most detailed record for posting dates, promotions, and similar data.

The AIR 76 record is quite unhelpful since it gives no indication of his RFC service in 1916.  The Army Officer Service Record (WO 339/41016)

would be the only remaining record for any assignment to the RFC, but these records often do not provide the details for RFC postings.

I could not locate a 1916 any record for RFC service for Frederick in 1916.  The only mention for such service is the ADM-273 notation for

"RFC January to April 1916."  While the London Gazette lists his commission as Temporary 2nd Lieutenant with the Wiltshires as dated

10 April 1915 (L.G. 29122/3455, 9 April 1915 & 29127/3587, 13 April 1915, there are no Gazettings for the RFC or RNAS, and the only RAF

citation is for relinquishing his commission: F.E. Bambridge, relinquishing commission on account of ill-health, and are permitted to retain their rank

(caused by wounds), dated 5 March 1919 (L.G. 31212/3020, 4 March 1919). 

     I suspect that the problem here is that Frederick was attached to the RFC from the Wiltshires as a Probationary Observer but did not remain

with the RFC long enough to be seconded or to qualify as a Graded Observer of Flying Officer: Observer.  Two sources of evidence for this are

his Medal Index Card (WO 372/1/214232) that lists his service as:  RFA 39284, no rank given; Wiltshire Regiment, 2nd Lieutenant; RNAS, no rank

given; RAF, Lieutenant.  The MIC says he went to France on 28 October 1915 whilst ADM-273 says September, 1915.  The second significant

finding is the notice in the Gazette announcing the relinquishing of his Army commission: he is listed as "Wilts. R. 2nd Lt. F.E.A. Bambridge,

relinquishes his commission on account of ill-health, dated 13 October 1916 (L.G. 29781/9846, 12 October 1916).  Note that he is listed as an

officer with the Wiltshires rather than the RFC.  This indicates, I believe, that he was attached to the RFC, possibly for several months, but the

transfer was never finalized (seconde  d) and is not recorded in any existing documents.  He is not listed in the comprehensive 20 Squadron

roll in Sellwood's book.  ADM-273 confirms that he joined the RNAS on 22 July 1917, received his flight training at Cranwell, was appointed

a Temporary Probationary Flying Officer on 17 October 1917, and was posted to 2 Naval Squadron on 3 December 1917, at the Royal Naval

Air Station, Dunkirk.  His AIR 76 shows no squadron or other postings after his wounding on 22 March 1918, his hospitalization in England on 3 April 1918,

and his classification as *unfit for any duty" dated 12 February 1919.  His RNAS performance ratings, on the reverse side of his ADM-273, are

uniformly excellent.  I hope this was helpful.

Josquin

Thank you Josquin for your work on this. Really appreciate it. 

I have got Freddys Casualty Card to hand and attach it below. Would it be the reverse side I need to see? It does state P.T O. at the bottom of the card.

Regards not being Gazetted - whilst as you say it was a short service in the RFC the reasons for Freddy not being Gazetted are explained in Jeffersons excellent detailed book " Observers & Navigators ". I'll attach some photos later this morning. Forgive me - it was 4.0am again last night when I stopped researching on my mobile phone. Bad habit of mine! Being recently retired I am like a small child in a sweet shop only much worse!

Fiona 

[josquin]

Fiona,

The R.A.F. Casualty Form for officers is a different, more detailed document than the Casualty Card you referenced.

Regrettably, no such form is available for Frederick.  See www.casualtyforms.org and look-up forms for some of the RFC/RAF officers

you have researched.  Some forms are quite detailed, but others are distinguished only for their brevity.  Congratulations for

making your retirement both a fascination and an adventure!  Best of luck as the hunt continues...

Josquin

[FionaBam]

Thank you - it will indeed  be useful . I emailed RAF Museum asking what happened to the "A - Beadle"  section and they said nobody knows. 

Meanwhile re reading pgs 28 to 31 of "Observers & Navigators " by C.C.Jefford , if I have understood correctly, from November 1915 all internally - recruited and "attached"  observers to each RFC Squadron were to be formally gazetted to the RFC. It took till January 1916 for this to start appearing in Army Lists , Jefford gives details .pic below. 

Checking Army List Jan 1916   the Index states RFC (Military ) which is not what I want - I was advised I need Corps  section. Anyway I am  going through them up till June 1916-  the dates for each person are 2 months behind.

Re Retirement- thanks! Absolutely agree with you. I might add whilst it is " School's Out" it is time to write my own Handbook/ Rulebook and being off my mobile phone by midnight COME WHAT MAY seems to be a good rule but...

Cheers

Fiona 

 

 

 

 

Edited 9 May , 2023 by FionaBam
Deleted poor quality photos, uploaded 2 better ones

[FionaBam]

12 hours ago, josquin said:

Fiona,

The R.A.F. Casualty Form for officers is a different, more detailed document than the Casualty Card you referenced.

Regrettably, no such form is available for Frederick.  See www.casualtyforms.org and look-up forms for some of the RFC/RAF officers

you have researched.  Some forms are quite detailed, but others are distinguished only for their brevity.  Congratulations for

making your retirement both a fascination and an adventure!  Best of luck as the hunt continues...

Josquin

Slightly better photos from Jefford' s book.

[josquin]

Fiona,

Thank you for the documentation from the Jeffords book.  As for rules and the derring-do of retirement, I will not go so far as to say that rules

are made to be broken, but neither should they be inflexible!  Nocturnal telephone calls aren't necessarily a bad thing, after all, despite their

impact on our sleep schedules.  Again, best of fortune to the quest to learn what happened in January through April of 1916.  Frederick must

have been a most interesting man--his RNAS superiors held him in high regard as evidenced by the comments on the ADM-273.

Cheers,

Josquin

[FionaBam]

9 hours ago, josquin said:

Fiona,

Thank you for the documentation from the Jeffords book.  As for rules and the derring-do of retirement, I will not go so far as to say that rules

are made to be broken, but neither should they be inflexible!  Nocturnal telephone calls aren't necessarily a bad thing, after all, despite their

impact on our sleep schedules.  Again, best of fortune to the quest to learn what happened in January through April of 1916.  Frederick must

have been a most interesting man--his RNAS superiors held him in high regard as evidenced by the comments on the ADM-273.

Cheers,

Josquin

Ah a flexible rule!I shall see how self- regulation goes !its not chatting in the early hours ,  its researching family history on my mobile phone . It's a portable computer nowadays isnt it. That's ok but staring at a tiny screen for hours is not good for my little brain - feels like it is gonna burst sometimes so its Zzzzzzzz  from now on. She says.....

Thank you for your good wishes and help. Yes it does go on. My way of getting to know my grandfather and  history at the same time. 

Cheers

Fiona 

[josquin]

Fiona,

Yes, the onrushing tide of brain overload goes with the pursuit of research, as I know only too well!  Yet the exhiliration when you discover

knowledge of significance makes it all worthwhile, as you have already experienced, and the quest invariably yields new questions and byways

to explore. 

Best regards,

Josquin

 

 

[FionaBam]

14 minutes ago, josquin said:

Fiona,

Yes, the onrushing tide of brain overload goes with the pursuit of research, as I know only too well!  Yet the exhiliration when you discover

knowledge of significance makes it all worthwhile, as you have already experienced, and the quest invariably yields new questions and byways

to explore. 

Best regards,

Josquin

 

 

Indeed. You put it very well.

This book arrived today to help me understand life in the Royal Field Artillery for Freddy on Howitzers.  Recommendation was gleaned from this Book section . And "Young Gunner" should arrive soon . At least reading books late at night doesn't mess with my eyes/brain so much so all is well.

☺️

Photo copyright to "The Unreturning Army " by Huntley Gordon.

And this slim volume about the Belgian Army is succinct but very helpful and illuminating too.And not just about Bovril !

Photo copyright to "The Belgian Army in WW1 " by Pawly & Lierneux

Cheers

Fiona 

[josquin]

Fiona,

Thank you for the references and photos.  Gordon's book is one of the outstanding Great War memoirs and gives a full account of what

RFA service entailed.  Frederick was seriously wounded in his final flight, on 22 March 1918, a date of importance because it was the second day

of the first great German offensive on the Western Front in 1918 (Operation Michael).  The Germans attacked the center of the British lines;

2 Naval Squadron was operating close to the Belgian coast and supporting the sector of the Allied line held by the Belgian Army.  Whilst

the Belgians were not attacked in Operation Michael, the German offensive was an all hands on deck emergency for which timely, accurate

aerial photo reconnaissance was essential to determine the location and movements of the German forces.  Frederick was escorting a Wireless

Telegraphy recon aircraft when his D.H.4 was hit by anti-aircraft fire and his Aerial Gunner/Observer, Acting Air Mechanic 1st Class Harry George

Lovelock, was killed.  Lovelock was a 20 year old from Henley, Oxfordshire, who enlisted in the RNAS in 1915.  Pervyse (now called Pervijze),

where Frederick's airplane crashed, is in West Flanders, about 28 km from Ypres.  Frederick, then, fought in one of the greatest battles of the

war and fulfilled the promise foretold by the comments of his superiors in his ADM 273 service record.  I have to remind myself that he had

just passed his 21st birthday at the time of his final flight in one of the decisive battles of the war.  The word "gallantry" comes to mind.

Given 2 Naval Squadron's operations in support of the Belgians, your book about the Belgian Army is a good choice, and Selwood's "Winged

Sabres" gives a good sense of what daily squadron combats and routines were like by including a great deal of material from squadron

records and combat reports.  Now, for January-April 1916...

Best regards,

Josquin

 

Best regards,

Josquin

[FionaBam]

https://www.naval-military-press.com/

"Spring sale" starts today at NMP!20% off everything !Steady on everyone ....!

Thank you Josquin.  Looking at the bigger picture is really important. 

Freddy's nephew Major Michael Golderer -Bambridge , born in Switzerland in 1918 , he was  half German, later Naturalised in Britain and he served   in WW2 in the British Army Corps . Freddy and Michael share a headstone together at Brookwood Military Cemetery . A very peaceful and lovely place.

Late March 1918 was significant as the start of the end.  I was lucky enough to catch sight of and attend an online Zoom talk on Tuesday evening by Professor David Stevenson :  "The Ludenhorff Offensives (March to July 1918)" ,  hosted by WFA in NW Kent.

Very interesting.  Prof. Stevenson's book  "  With our backs to the wall-Victory and Defeat in 1918" might be on NMP website ...

It was the " Michael Offensive " starting on 21st March 1918 with a huge barrage at 04.40  that Winston Churchill described so vividly being near enough at the time to witness it.

Yes...RFC mystery -am lucky to also have some research help currently from the Wiltshire/Wardrobe Museum and together we may find this nugget .

Thanks again 

Best wishes 

Fiona 

 

 

Edited 12 May , 2023 by FionaBam
Add a sentence & correct cemetery name

[josquin]

Fiona,

David Stevenson's presentation on the German offensives of 1918 was highly informative without a doubt, given the quality of his published

oeuvre.  Regrettably, his book about the Ludendorff Offensives is not yet on the nmp list, but nmp does list his excellent and comprehensive,

"Royal Navy's Air Service in the Great War" (fortunately on sale).  Also listed by nmp is Malcolm Smith's "Voices in Flight: The Royal Naval Air

Service," a collection of first-hand accounts by RNAS airmen that well conveys the experience of Great War service.  Speaking of German

relatives, I noted that Anna Caroline Charlotte Siebert, Frederick's mother, was born at Frankfurt am Main on 8 March 1868.  Impressive, acs

well, that Frederick's father, Arthur Leopold, was an artist (painter).  I am working with two other researchers on The Aerodrome website

on an extensive project to verify the identities of airmen cited in official communiques, combat reports, squadron operations books, and

the like, and the work includes collecting forenames and biographical information (when available).  Frederick was listed in error as

"Bembridge," so researching him was definitely warranted!  I found that he passed in 1966, at South Mimms, Herts, but I could not

locate anything concerning his life subsequent to 1919.  Now, with respect to January-April, 1916...

Best regards,

Josquin

 

[FionaBam]

Oh thank you Josquin. Have that Voices of RNAS pilots sitting in my " shopping basket" on NMP. I stopped scrolling at page 17 ( filter low to high price) with 6 in the bag for a decision today . The Stevenson book will now be looked at too!

I tried to message you on Aerodrome website the other day as my collaborator Mike sent me a link to your very thorough and 100% accurate entry about Freddy there. Thank you, its really nice that Freddy will be read about there.

Yes the German connection- wonder how that felt for Freddy in WW1 and he flew again in WW2. I am on Ancestry- do see my family tree (Bambridge/Butner tree) though I have  Anna Siebert 's ancestors in a " floating tree"- need to find out how to connect that to my overall tree now.

I am researching Freddys life in the 1920s . I have researched his WW2 service and have treasures from his post WW2 life till he died in 1966. And I have found quite a lot  more about his father  , Arthur Leopold,painter and footballer , too.

This is mean of me but....am saving this for the article I am working on with my collaborator Mike about 2 RNAS and Freddys part in it. For now, I cant say more . It's all fingers crossed basically.

Best wishes 

Fiona 

 

[josquin]

Fiona,

If your collaborator Mike is Mike Westrop, you are working with the foremost authority on the RNAS, in my view.  His book on 10 Naval Squadron is a classic.

Give Mike my best regards; we've communicated in past years.  I will look forward to your article. indeed!

Best regards,

Josquin

[FionaBam]

It is indeed  ! Yes I am very lucky! A very serendipitous moment when I contacted Mike via a thread here! 

I will do .

Fingers crossed .Thanks.

[FionaBam]

6 hours ago, josquin said:

Fiona,

David Stevenson's presentation on the German offensives of 1918 was highly informative without a doubt, given the quality of his published

oeuvre.  Regrettably, his book about the Ludendorff Offensives is not yet on the nmp list, but nmp does list his excellent and comprehensive,

"Royal Navy's Air Service in the Great War" (fortunately on sale).  Also listed by nmp is Malcolm Smith's "Voices in Flight: The Royal Naval Air

Service," a collection of first-hand accounts by RNAS airmen that well conveys the experience of Great War service.  Speaking of German

relatives, I noted that Anna Caroline Charlotte Siebert, Frederick's mother, was born at Frankfurt am Main on 8 March 1868.  Impressive, acs

well, that Frederick's father, Arthur Leopold, was an artist (painter).  I am working with two other researchers on The Aerodrome website

on an extensive project to verify the identities of airmen cited in official communiques, combat reports, squadron operations books, and

the like, and the work includes collecting forenames and biographical information (when available).  Frederick was listed in error as

"Bembridge," so researching him was definitely warranted!  I found that he passed in 1966, at South Mimms, Herts, but I could not

locate anything concerning his life subsequent to 1919.  Now, with respect to January-April, 1916...

Best regards,

Josquin

 

And so good to know Freddy 's surname is now correct  in your records, thank you .

Mike recently wrote to author of TSTB Trevor Henshaw and he is kindly correcting it in his next edition of TSTB.

Cheers

Fiona 

[josquin]

Fiona,

Thank you for the update concerning the correction for Frederick's surname in Henshaw's forthcoming edition.  It is encouraging

that such progress is occurring in the effort to establish an accurate historical record.  In the meantime, I will look forward to your

article as well as any results with respect to January-April, 1916. 

Best regards,

Josquin

[FionaBam]

1 hour ago, josquin said:

Fiona,

Thank you for the update concerning the correction for Frederick's surname in Henshaw's forthcoming edition.  It is encouraging

that such progress is occurring in the effort to establish an accurate historical record.  In the meantime, I will look forward to your

article as well as any results with respect to January-April, 1916. 

Best regards,

Josquin

Yes . Its respectful too. And allows others tracing ancestors/ researching to locate people .

Thank you ! Will let you know.

Cheers

Fiona