Looking for Sergeant of Marines RMLI called Naylor? posted Lerwick, Shetland 1914-15

[JohnH]

I'm looking for the service record of a Sergeant of Marines (RMLI) called Naylor? who was posted to Fort Charlotte Lerwick, Shetland in 1914-15 under Lieut. Colonel H. C. Evans, R.M.L.I.

[busterfield]

From National Archives a few to look at. Only allowed a set ammount of free downloads a day as the "free downloads from TNA" at top of page explains.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_aq=ADM 159&_ep=naylor&_dss=range&_ro=any&_p=1900&_st=adv

[Gunner 87]

42 minutes ago, busterfield said:

From National Archives a few to look at. Only allowed a set ammount of free downloads a day as the "free downloads from TNA" at top of page explains.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_aq=ADM 159&_ep=naylor&_dss=range&_ro=any&_p=1900&_st=adv

Hi. You can actually preview as many of the records as you like at the NA site. The limit is when you go to download them  It's  not perfect as it can be a little difficult to view but it does mean you can look at as many as you wish.

Edited 30 April , 2023 by Gunner 87

[Gunner 87]

Find My Past, who offer a free seven day trial, have all the RMLI records available to view which is far easier than using the NA.

[KizmeRD]

Do you know any additional information information relating to Sgt. Naylor? (d.o.b. or place of birth?)

As you are no doubt aware, Lt.Col. H.C. Evans was appointed to Lerwick in August 1914 as Officer Commanding both the RNR (Shetland Section) and the island Territorials (Gordon Highlanders), so I presume that Sgt Naylor would have been employed as a permanent staff drill instructor at Lerwick (and is likely to have enlisted sometime around the turn of the Century).

Where does the reference to ‘Sergeant of Marines (RMLI)’ come from?

MB

[Gunner 87]

Having had a good search of FMP and Forces War Records, both of which hold RMLI records, I managed to find just one 'possible' wit regards rank. Colour Sergeant Vincent Henry Naylor, CH/7740.

The reason I have suggested this man is because from January to August 1914 he was stationed at a location that is unclear so 'could' be Lerwick oe whatever name was used for that base. He had been employed as a Provost Corporal and Police Sergeant during his proceeding years with the RMLI.

I haven't managed to find any other Sergeants on those two sites.

ADM-159-48-7740.pdf

[JohnH]

1 hour ago, KizmeRD said:

Where does the reference to ‘Sergeant of Marines (RMLI)’ come from?

@KizmeRD I spoke with an old Shetland gentlemen (about 90 and as bright as a button) recently who told me about his father joining the RNR (Shetland Section) in Dec. 1914. His son was based at Lerwick from 7 Dec. 1914 until 1 May 1915. He went onto to tell me that the young RNR recruits were drilled by a Sgt. Naylor. I found a reference to Lt. Col. H.C. Evans arrival in Lerwick in Aug. 1914 in a Ph.D. thesis "Shetland and the Great War" by Linda K. Riddell, she wrote about his arrival "Evans had a Lieutenant and Sergeants of Marines but no other officers" Her reference was Denis Rollo, 'Fort Charlotte: new light on its history, parts I, II & III', Shetland News. Date [10 - 24 June 1958]. 

Edited 30 April , 2023 by JohnH

[horatio2]

43 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

Colour Sergeant Vincent Henry Naylor, CH/7740.

This is the only NAYLOR of Sergeant rank or above listed in the RM Medal Roll. However, his ADM 159 record shows the following drafts:

10 Dec 1913 - 1 Aug 1914 Chatham Division (at [Deal] Depot;  and 2 Aug 1914 - 25 Aug 1916 Chatham Division [RMLI HQ Chatham]. He was ranked Sergeant throughout this period and was discharged to pension and re-entered as a pensioner on 15 August 1914.

If drafted to Shetland, I would have expected him to be shown as on the boooks of HMS COLUMBINE (as was Lt Col EVANS). Nevertheless, he seems to be the strongest candidate and he is shown as being on the Chatham Division Embarked Ledger (EL) in August 1914.

 

Edited 30 April , 2023 by horatio2

[KizmeRD]

Photo below might well be Sgt. Naylor in action (training naval reservists in Lerwick), but I can’t find a better image, and have been unable yet to ascertain for sure whether the Shetland Contingent RNR had a Naylor on the staff.

MB

[Gunner 87]

2 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

Photo below might well be Sgt. Naylor in action (training naval reservists in Lerwick), but I can’t find a better image, and have been unable yet to ascertain for sure whether the Shetland Contingent RNR had a Naylor on the staff.

MB

Just found that Henry Vincent Naylor on Ancestry family trees and he got married on the 17/04/15 at Lerwick, Shetland, Scotland.

Edited to put Henry as first name. 

@horatio2

Edited 30 April , 2023 by Gunner 87

[JohnH]

3 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

Just found that Vincent Henry Naylor got married on the 17/04/15 at Lerwick, Shetland, Scotland.

@Gunner 87 excellent research, thank you. I have attached the registry entry for this marriage.   

ScotlandsPeople_M1915_005_01_0013Z.pdf

[horatio2]

Well, that marriage seems to clinch the matter. Henry Vincent NAYLOR is our man. Good sleuthing!.

[Gunner 87]

This excerpt from the 'Shetland News' 3rd July 1919 listed FC Edwards and Henry as being present at the 101 Gun Salute, Alexandra War, Lerwick on te preceding Monday 30th. 

John, the article spans two pages so I have downloaded it and will send it over by pm to you.

 

 

Edited 30 April , 2023 by Gunner 87

[KizmeRD]

Well done @Gunner 87.

MB

[JohnH]

3 hours ago, Gunner 87 said:

This excerpt from the 'Shetland News' 3rd July 1919 listed FC Edwards and Henry as being present at the 101 Gun Salute, Alexandra War, Lerwick on te preceding Monday 30th. 

@Gunner 87 I have attached photo of naval parade at Alexandra Wharf, Lerwick which was opposite Fort Charlotte where 101 Gun Salute took place on Monday 30 June 1919.

[JohnH]

Shetland Museum and Archives::Officers group Fort Charlotte

@Gunner 87 and @KizmeRD Blown up photo of Sergeant Henry Vincent Naylor with Officers/NCO group at Fort Charlotte, Lerwick in 1915. Original photo can be viewed at link above. 

 

 

[Gunner 87]

1 hour ago, JohnH said:

Shetland Museum and Archives::Officers group Fort Charlotte

@Gunner 87 and @KizmeRD Blown up photo of Sergeant Henry Vincent Naylor with Officers/NCO group at Fort Charlotte, Lerwick in 1915. Original photo can be viewed at link above. 

 

 

Excellent. Thank you for coming back to us with this. Also interesting to see Lieutenant Colonel H.C. Evans on whose orders the entire staff at the Lerwick Post Office were arrested. Apparently it caused quite a stir amongst the locals https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/learning/first-world-war/the-1914-lerwick-post-office-affair

[KizmeRD]

I’d love to know who ‘fatty’ was - he’s the chap seen in the photo posted earlier in the thread, taking the blue jackets for rifle drill.

And interestingly (from the evidence of the Shetland Archives photo), there also appears to have been more NCO’s on the staff than originally thought.

MB

 

Edited 26 May , 2023 by KizmeRD

[JohnH]

8 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

I’d live to know who ‘fatty’ was - he’s the chap seen in the photo posted earlier in the thread, taking the blue jackets for rifle drill.

Here is link to Shetland Museum details on above photo. Sadly "fatty" unnamed. 

Shetland Museum and Archives::Bayonet drill at Fort Charlotte

Here is a blown photo of unknown Sergeant - nicknamed Fatty

We maybe able to identify him from his uniform. I have a possible candidate a Colour Sergeant Hearn. He is named in a report by Lt Col H C Evans in Dec. 1914 so was probably stationed in Lerwick in 1915.

 

 

[Gunner 87]

45 minutes ago, JohnH said:

Here is link to Shetland Museum details on above photo. Sadly "fatty" unnamed. 

Shetland Museum and Archives::Bayonet drill at Fort Charlotte

Here is a blown photo of unknown Sergeant - nicknamed Fatty

We maybe able to identify him from his uniform. I have a possible candidate a Colour Sergeant Hearn. He is named in a report by Lt Col H C Evans in Dec. 1914 so was probably stationed in Lerwick in 1915.

 

 

There is a Colour Sergeant George Hearn, 7463, Royal Marine Light Infantry, Chatham Division that could be a candidate. His record doesn't list Lerwick but if I'm correct nor did Naylor's. 

ADM-159-47-7463.pdf

[KizmeRD]

Gunner87 - you could well be the right. Our ‘fatty’ has two medal ribbons on his uniform, which could well be Queen’s South African medal, together with a LS&GC medal (but not easy to tell for certain).

MB

[Gunner 87]

This is the record of men with surname 'Hearn' in the 'Royal Navy Medal Rolls 1793-1955', looking at the ranks they are all RM's. There is one overleaf but he is William. If this is all the 'Hearns' serving between those dates to have received medals ten George is likely our man. Another thought, this Colour Sergeant is known as 'Fatty'. George Hearn was the Cook Sergeant from 11/01/07 - 11/01/11. I wonder if that was one of the reasons he got his nik name.

Edited 26 May , 2023 by Gunner 87

[JohnH]

Thank you @Gunner 87 for your excellent research. His service record mentions a scar on his upper lip (if I've read it correctly). In the photo above his moustache is not symmetrical, maybe connected to this scar?  

Edited 26 May , 2023 by JohnH
add scan from service record

[KizmeRD]

But the medal roll shown is for WW1 only, so not sure that helps much.
And since the officer in the middle is Lt. Col. Evans, the photo could not have been taken later than 13 Nov 1915 - which means that none of the medal ribbons being worn by the Colour Sergeant relate to WW1 service.

That said, everything still points towards George Hearn, who received QSA medal in 1902 and LS&GC medal in 1908.

MB

Edited 26 May , 2023 by KizmeRD

[Gunner 87]

1 hour ago, KizmeRD said:

But the medal roll shown is for WW1 only, so not sure that helps much.

Your spot on MB, my apologies, that was poorly presented as any useful evidence. 

The reason I thought to share to was it was actually how I identified George in the first place, being a Colour Sergeant in the Royal Marines Light Infantry / Artillery during the Great War. As had here been another Colour Sergeant Hearn serving at the same time he would almost certainly been that list. And with the British War Medal not being instituted until 1919 then neither of his medals relate to Great War service.

I agree, the medals also appear to support it being George.