Scout attack on RNAS Short 184, Gaza, 30 October 1917

[Ian Burns]

Although the official reports in AIR 1/1708/204/123/75. City of Oxford. Report of Operations mention a 'Halberstadt Scout' I think we are looking at an Albatros D.III from FA300.

The report describes the encounter thus:

Around 16.40 on 30 October 1917 Short N1262 was attacked by a ‘Halberstadt Scout’ more likely an Albatros D.III from FA300. Turning towards the ships, the Short, was followed down by the Scout to within 800 feet of the water firing at the Seaplane from a gun firing straight ahead. The Observer of the Seaplane, Captain W.R. Kempson, opened fire on pursuing Scout at close range and let him have 2 trays from Lewis gun. Scout still followed; Seaplane was then turned sharply to the right, enabling Anti-Aircraft guns from HMS Raglan to drive off the Scout which had until then been too near the Seaplane for AA-fire from ships.

 Seaplane was hit in about 35 places, in fuselage and top centre section; one elevator control was shot away and Captain Kempson obtained slight splinter wounds in the thigh.

 The floats of the Seaplane were so badly holed by machine gun fire that, after landing, it became waterlogged and turned over alongside HMS Raglan before it could be hoisted inboard.

 The wrecked machine was eventually got on board HMS Raglan and subsequent concussion, caused by gun-fire of 14 inch turret, blew the machine to pieces.

The location was over Wadi el Hesi at Deir Sineid about 5 miles inland from the coast, someway north of Gaza. The Short was spotting on to the railway station and bridge for the 14-inch monitor HMS Raglan.

Can anyone confirm that it was an Albatros and who the pilot was?

I think it can be claimed as a victory for the Albatros pilot.

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

I can find no claims (German or Ottoman) and your right no Halberstadt  used this far south (Gaza while there were a few D5 around Dardenelles, the only action I can find is these two blokes;

Calliebe Otto Willy Gerhard     Lt deR    Observer (Beobachter) Airforce Flieger-Abteilung 301    1917-18    (1893 at Züllichow died 20-3-76) bisher vermißt MIA leicht verwundet (minor wound) in Gefschaft (in prison) PoW 30-10-17 WIA 30-10-17 chest and L/arm lost a forearm (loss part of the left arm) when shot down in AEG C4 with von Jagow (P) by Capt Reck/Williams in BF (A7194) near El Khelasa from Infanterie Regiment No 268 to Reserve Infanterie Regiment No 210 to Flieger-Abteilung (A) 295b 3-17 to Kommander Fliegerersatz-Abteilung 2 7-17 to Palestine 10-17 later WWII Vice Inspector of the NPEA Inspection state offices and SS Oberführer as vice-inspector post war Deutscher Gymnasiallehrer und Napola-Leiter

Jagow Bernhard von    ObLt    Pilot Airforce Flieger-Abteilung 301     1917-18    (1893 at Roschinno Wongrowitz ) bisher vermißt MIA in Gefschaft (in prison) shown WIA 30-10-17 L/heel & PoW 30-10-17 shown shot down in AEG C4 with Lt Calliebe (O) by Capt Reck/Williams in BF (A7194) near El Khelasa during a reece sortie over Allied lines captured with camera and film of British advance from Lieb Infanterie Regiment No 2 brother Siegfried 
 

I can find no others at present but will keep checking

PS

I did find these two but no details on where they were lost but around the Dardenelles not Gaza.

Volkon    FähnrichzS Marine    Pilot Airforce German Seaplane Sqn (Wasserfliegerabteilung) 12-15     1915-18    shown Hansa-Brandenburg NW/GNW (770) with FähnrichzS Walter (O) ditched into the sea 29-10-17 (spelling in Ole Nikoljsen)

Walter    FähnrichzS Marine    Observer Airforce German Seaplane Squadron (Wasserfliegerabteilung) 12-16    1916-18    shown Hansa-Brandenburg NW/GNW (770) with FähnrichzS Volkon (P) ditched into the sea 29-10-17 (spelling in Ole Nikoljsen)

S.B

Edited 29 April , 2023 by stevenbecker

[michaeldr]

17 hours ago, Ian Burns said:

Report of Operations mention a 'Halberstadt Scout' I think we are looking at an Albatros D.III from FA300.

Ian, 
It is possible that I have misunderstood you here, 
however, Desmond Seward in his 'Wings Over the Desert' mentions Halberstadts over this front at this time. From the footnotes he appears to be quoting Borton as given in Slater's 'My Warrior Sons'

EDIT to add - There's a further ref here - https://www.rusinsw.org.au/Papers/2018A05.pdf 
"In early October 1917, von Falkenhayn activated a new 8th Army to be commanded by Kress von Kressenstein. Comprising seven infantry divisions and one cavalry division, the 8th Army was assigned responsibility for the western or coastal defence zone, including Gaza. Defensive works were extended inland as far as Tel-el-Sheria, two-thirds of the way between Gaza and Beersheba, where a substantial garrison was also developed. And a squadron of newly arrived German Halberstadt fighter aircraft, which outclassed Allied aircraft, gave the Ottomans local air mastery."

Edited 29 April , 2023 by michaeldr

[Ian Burns]

According to FLIEGER-ABTEILUNG 301 AND THE GERMAN AERIAL FORCE IN PALESTINE IN WWI - Part 3, Dieter H.M. Gröschel and Elimor Makevet in Cross and Cockade International Journal, V52N1, p.47 :

During its service in Sinai and Palestine as sole Pascha I flying unit, FA 300 operated but a handful of fighter aircraft and employed these in essentially the same way that Feldflieger-Abteilungen did at an early stage, after the Eindecker (single-seat monoplane fighter) started arriving on the Western front. The few Pfalz E.IIs followed by Fokker E.III fighters, and finally two Albatros D.IIIs received in June 1917, remained ‘embedded’ in the two-seater unit and generally flew as escorts for its reconnaissance missions. For most of this period the scale of aerial activity in Sinai and Palestine, the prevailing balance of air power and the scarcity of available German fighters did not warrant nor permit the creation of even a detachment of fighters dedicated to ‘pure’ fighter operations.

And p.48 :

It is unclear why no Jagdstaffel had been formed as one of the Pascha II flying units in summer 1917; perhaps initial plans to deploy this expeditionary force in Iraq did not envisage
the need for a dedicated fighter squadron. Instead, the new Flieger-Abteilungen had each been allotted Albatros fighters out of the complement of 16 machines that eventually went
to Palestine. In addition, a number of experienced Jasta pilots were posted to the FAs and ‘earmarked’ for flying the single seat fighters as escort and protection for their respective units’
two-seaters. By October 1917, when the FAs were in the process of moving into their aerodromes in southern Palestine, the organization of a Jagdstaffel that would muster and operate its
own fighters was already very much on the minds of German aviation commanders.

The Albatros fighters were mostly, if not all,  new Albatros D.III(OAW).

The above are just samples of fairly extensive English language accounts of German aviation in Palestine during the 1917-18 period. 

I cannot speak to any personal knowledge of accounts in German or from the German records.

The identification of the "Halberstadt" scouts was made is combat and cannot be considered reliable. The fighters on the Palestine front were undoubtedly Albatros D.III at this time. Seward's book is an interesting read but relies of published books rather than original documents. 

The Halberstadt fighters were mostly 33 D.V supplied to the Ottoman Air Force in 1917 and early 1918. Two machines were also transferred from German units in Palestine, where they were not highly thought of. The Ottomans employed them for homeland defence and in Mesopotamia. There are no records of any being employed by Turkish units in Palestine, which in any case were on the far left of the line beyond the Dead Sea. (Ref: Ottoman Aviation 1909-1919, Ole Nikolajsen.)

According to Major Serno, Commander of the Ottoman Air Force, 1915-1918, (quoted in Wings Over Sinai and Palestine, Gröschel and Ladek, Over The Front, V13N1, 1998) only AEG C.IV, Albatros D.III and Rumpler C.I were employed by German units during the Third Battle of Gaza.  Gröschel and Ladek referenced Serno's original reports, not the translations to be found in Cross and Cockade US, Vol11, 1917.

We are most certainly looking at Albatros fighters in this situation.

[michaeldr]

Ian, thanks for those refs and your clarification

[Jasta72s]

I had a look at Hans Werner Neulen's book "Die Adler des Kaisers im Orient 1915-1919", pp 102/103. Neulen reported the loss of Oberleutnant Gustav Adolf Dittmar (POW) in Albatros D.III 636/17 on 8 October 1917 and mentioned Dittmar was flying together with [Friedrich] Freiherr von Thüna who flew another Albatros which was damaged but escaped. So, I think v. Thüna could be a candidate for the fight with the seaplane three weeks later. Just an idea. 

[Ian Burns]

Thanks Jasta72s,

It's a theory. Trouble is I think most combats were with RFC units at the time of Third Gaza. So, lacking a specific mention a seaplane, the pilot will have to remain anonymous

Ian

[stevenbecker]

Ian,

I also did notice these claims

Daum Rolf Ludwig Ferdinand Werner     ObLt    Observer (Beobachter) Airforce to Flieger-Abteilung 300 4-17 to Flieger-Abteilung 301 10-17 - Feldfliegertruppe
WIA 12-10-17 (no details)

Ernert Richard    Lt deR    Pilot Airforce Flieger-Abteilung 301 7-17 
KIA 15-10-17 (no details)

Falke (Friedrich Theodor) Richard    ObLt (Capt)    Observer (Beobachter) Airforce to Flieger-Abteilung 300 9-16 shown still there 4-17
possibly shown in Rumpler C1 (1831/16) with Yago or Jagow (P) PoW 27-10-17 or 28-10-17) some say RTG 8-17

Schmarje    Lt    Pilot Airforce Flieger-Abteilung 300 12-16 
shown crashed in Albatross D3 (D2174/17) 18-10-17 (no details) 

All other claims are along the Turkish coast against British seaplanes, none are shown around Gaza.

S.B

[Ian Burns]

Steven, 

Thanks. You wrote above "All other claims are along the Turkish coast against British seaplanes". Those are the ones I am interested in.

The seaplane carriers (City of Oxford, Raven, and Empress) were all operating off the Wadi el Hesi, north of Gaza, and Ashkelon, between 30 October and 8 November. I see I did not make that clear in my first post - my bad 

So, anything you may have relating to those locations between those dates is probably what I was searching for.

[stevenbecker]

Ian,

No worries Lets see for Oct 1917

Debrodt Wilhelm    Flug-Ober-Maat deR Marine    possibly pilot? Airforce I. Seeflieger-Abteilung - Seeflugstation SFS Duingi Romania     1917-    (born at Neuhaus a. Oste KIA 31-5-18) Tot shown Bootmaat 2nd Marine Pionier Komp leicht verwundet (minor wound) WIA 30-8-15 shown Interned in Holland zurück in der Heimat 1917 leicht verwundet (minor wound) WIA 1-10-17 possbily in crash with Kapt-Lt Meyra to SFS Flandern I 

Eschwege Rudolf von (Rudi)    Lt    Pilot Airforce Feldflieger-Abteilung Xanthi in Bulgaria visited Istanbul units 10-17     1917-    (1895 in Bad Homburg vor der Höhe KIA 21-11-17) from Jäger-Regiment zu Pferde No 3 to Fliegerabteilung 36 (Rumänien) 7-15 to Feldflieger-Abteilung 66 (Eastern Front & Macedonia) claimed a Nieuport 12 near Drama 25-10-16 and a Nieuport 12 (3979) near Drama 19-11-16 and a Farman (F3131) over Drama airfield 27-12-16 to Fliegerabteilung 30 (Macedonia) of Bulgarian-German Flying Corps 1-17 flying Fokker E3 and forced down and captured a Serbian Farman that bombed the Xanthi railroad depot both PoW 9-1-17 shot down a BE 12 with Lt Owen PoW at Drama Greece 18-2-17 and Nieuport 12 near Drama 19-2-17 and in Albatros D3 claimed a Nieuport 12 near Lake Tahino 8-3-17 and a RNAS Nieuport 12 (N3182) with Lt Beare/Hyde WIA near Doksat 22-3-17 and a Sopwith 1½ Strutter (N5223) near Xanthi 30-3-17 claimed a Farman SE of Kavalla near Thasos 20-5-17 shown WIA 20-5-17 R/arm in dogfight shown shot down Camel (ZSqn 2 Wing RNAS LtCdr Wood KIA) Thasos Island near Tasli 20-8-17 and Sopwith 1½ Strutter Struma Estuary 12-9-17 shown flow Halberstadt D2 (118/16) claimed two British observation balloons near Kopiva 28-10-17 & 9-11-17 and Near Orljak 15-11-17 and a Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter near Kalendra W of Seres 19-11-17 killed when a Balloon blown up in trap over Orljak Bulgaria (16 victories + 4 balloons) known as the "Eagle of the Aegean" awarded Order of the Zähringer Lion and Saxon Military Order of St. Henry and Bulgarian Order of Bravery 1st class & 4th class and 
 

Krüger (Kreuger) Walter     Flug-Ober-Maat deR Marine    Pilot Airforce Sdr-Kdo (Sonderkommando) Seeflugstation - German Seaplane Sqn (Wasserfliegerabteilung)  1917    1917-18    (1891 at Düren KIA 30-9-17) when shot down in Rumpler 6B1 (1048) along with Görtner in Friedrichshafen FF 33L (1124) and Muller in Rumpler (894) by British Lt Alcock in a Camel and Sub/Lt Mellings Sopwith Triplane while escort to a Reccon sortie to Mudros Bay near Imbros 30-9-17 also shown kriegsgefangen England in Gefschaft (in prison) PoW 3-10-17 (spelling in Ole Nikoljsen)

Meyra gen Meyr Alfred    Kapt-Lt deR M Art Dr Marine    Observer (Beobachter) Airforce Sdr-Kdo (Sonderkommando) German Seaplane Sqn (Wasserfliegerabteilung) 11-15 RTG 7-16     1915-16    (born 1885 at Konstanz Baden DoA 2-10-17) gestorben bisher vermißt* (died) from Stabsarzt SMS "Stettin" to trained observer at (Seeflugstation) SFS List and Warnemünde to SFS Helgoland 1915 to Turkey 11-15 RTG to SFS Wiek and at SFS Köslin to SFS Duingi Romania 2-17 leicht verwundet (minor wound) WIA 1-10-17 possbily in crash with FlugObMaat Debrodt shown in russ Gefangenschaft geft (imprisoned in russia) 2-10-17 im Laz Sulina / Selina awarded EK II & EK I 2-16 and Baden's Iron Cross and Order of the Zähringer Lion and Ottoman Imtiaz Medal and Liakat Medal shown as Fred Meyr in Klaus Wolf's Book 

Müller Johann Robert     OberMaat deR (LtzS) Marine    Pilot Airforce Sdr-Kdo (Sonderkommando) German Seaplane Sqn (Wasserfliegerabteilung)     1917-18    (1890 at Ruprechtsau Strassburg ) leicht verwundet (minor wound) WIA 30-9-17 GSW L/thigh and R/wrist in Gefschaft (in prison) PoW 30-9-17 when shot down in Rumpler 6B1 (894) along with Görtner in Friedrichshafen FF 33L (1124) and Krüger in FF 33L (1048) seaplanes by British Lt Alcock in a Camel and Sub/Lt Mellings Sopwith Triplane while escort to a Reccon sortie to Mudros Bay 30-9-17 also shown kriegsgefangen England in Gefschaft (in prison) PoW 3-10-17 awarded EK II & EK I (not identified)? (spelling in Ole Nikoljsen)

Netso (Netsof)     Lt    Pilot Airforce 6th Aircraft Company 1-16 to 5th Aircraft Company Tayyare Boluk 3-16 still there 12-16 to 12th Aircraft Company 4-17 still there 12-17 att 5th Aircraft Company due to no aircraft 8-18     1915-17    shown arrived from 6th Aircraft Company with Fokker E1 (F2) 4-16 shown WIA 3-6-16 in Fokker E1 (F2) (361 108/15) when crashed on take off due to engine failure off Izmir 3-6-16 reported Fokker E3 (F5) (597 340/16) crashed on landing due to engine failure near Izmir 17/18-10-17 RTG 10-18 (not identified)? (spelling in Ole Nikoljsen)
 

Schubert Wilhelm or (Georg)    VzFeldwebel to LtzS deR Marine    Flugobermaat Pilot Airforce (possibly 1st Aircraft Company) 5-15 shown German Seaplane Sqn (Wasserfliegerabteilung) 11-15 to 9-18    1915-18    (1892 at Bornsdorf ) from Freiwilliger Marine-Fliegerkorps 1914 - to Sdr-Kdo (Sonderkommando) der Kaiserlichen Marine in der Turkei 11-15 claimed in Gotha WD2 (424) with Lt Werdier (O) shot down a Farman from (French) Escadrille MF 98T 4-1-16 - claimed in Gotha WD2 (573) shot down balloon (SS8) off Mudros 14-10-16 claimed in Rumpler 6B1 (894) shot down a Farman near Imbros 26-2-17 claimed in Rumpler 6B (895) shot down third plane over Lemnos or the Gulf of Saros 12-10-17 - claimed in Rumpler 6B (895) shot down British seaplane and damaged another (possibly claimed with Meinecke shot down Lt Johnston and Schubert shot down Sopwith Baby Floatplane SubLt RW Peel 6 RNAS) attacking German SMS Goeben & Breslau near Islands off Dardanelles 17/20-1-18 RTG to  I. Seeflieger Abteilung 9-18 (spelling in Ole Nikoljsen) shown 1st Aircraft Company in Klaus Wolf's Book

and these two already given above but again no details on where they were ditched but Dardenells most likely

Volkon    FähnrichzS Marine    Pilot Airforce German Seaplane Sqn (Wasserfliegerabteilung) 12-15     1915-18    shown Hansa-Brandenburg NW/GNW (770) with FähnrichzS Walter (O) ditched into the sea 29-10-17 (spelling in Ole Nikoljsen)

Walter    FähnrichzS Marine    Observer Airforce German Seaplane Squadron (Wasserfliegerabteilung) 12-16    1916-18    shown Hansa-Brandenburg NW/GNW (770) with FähnrichzS Volkon (P) ditched into the sea 29-10-17 (spelling in Ole Nikoljsen)
 

Right out of the box

Udvardy Ferdinand (Nandor)     Stabsfeldwebel     KUK pilot Airforce Luftfahrtruppen Cpl Pilot Fliegerkompagnie 10 10-16 to Fliegerkompagnie 42 Jagdflieger 5-17    1917-18    (1895 at Pozsony Slovakia died post 1945?) KUK from Infanterie Regiment No 72 to Hungarian Pilot (8 victories) claimed in Hansa-Brandenburg C.I  an Italian Spad and shared a Nieuport with Risztics near Monte Sabotino 10-7-17 shared a French Spad and Italian Savoia-Pomilio near Nova Vas and Kostanjevica 23-9-17 shared a French Spad near Ronchi 26-9-17 shared a Italian Seaplane near Grado 26-10-17 and claimed in Albatros D III an Italian Hanriot HD 1 near Montello 20-5-18 claimed in Albatros D III an Italian Hanriot HD 1 near Nervesa 20-6-18 shown with Gallipoli star Ottoman War Medal Honory award by Ottoman Govt
 

Like I said they are far away from Gaza 

S.B

 

 

[Jasta72s]

Quote

Thanks Jasta72s,

It's a theory. Trouble is I think most combats were with RFC units at the time of Third Gaza. So, lacking a specific mention a seaplane, the pilot will have to remain anonymous 

Ian

I think the term "candidate" was clear enough. And, indeed, the identity of the pilot will most-likely remain anonymous because he would come back, write a report and mention that an enemy seaplane was hit. But this is not enough for an "Abschuss" (shooting down)! For the Germans an "Abschuss" required the destruction of the enemy airplane and witnesses for the deed. One could speculate that he made a claim for a "zur Landung gezwungen" (forced to land). Claims of the this type were confirmed too but they were not counted as offical victories and did not increase the pilot's offical score. Furthermore, the Germans could not know about the final loss of the seaplane.  So, the pilot in question could only book it as "silent heroism".   

[Jeff Pickerd]

Not sure if this is of any significance to the topic, but put it up anyway. The photograph is taken from the documents from Sig C. Jamison, 3rd LH Bde Signal Troop, a German one he had acquired, and noted by him to be a German Seaplane at Jaffa 1917.  Aircraft of the First World War is not a field of study that I am familiar with, but I am sure the experts on this forum will be able to identify it. 

Trust it is of interest.

Jeff

[Ian Burns]

Gentlemen,

Well Steven your sources are very interesting! Lots of good stuff but, as you say, nothing remotely close to Gaza. 

I think Jasta72s has the answer. Without a reasonable hope of a  "Abschuss" claim any combats would just have been noted and that's an end to it.

Jeff your photo is another mystery! You say the original album had noted the floatplane at Jaffa. That is the first reference to German floatplanes in Palestine that I have seen. But I have no reason to doubt it. Just another little mystery - as is the identity of the machine itself.

My first inclination would be to say it is a Friederichshafen FF.33l (That's a lower case l not a 1), but the tail is all wrong. The FF.33l had large fin areas ahead of the rudder both above and below the fuselage - these are missing and the rudder is an odd design. Then I found this photo, clearly taken at the same time as your image -

Serial 1257 was a FF.33l. The above also shows that it was a short span FF.33l. So, perhaps they were also fitted with the unusual rudder and no fins... Another mystery to be examined.

I will make a few enquiries. Watch This Space!

Ian

[Ian Burns]

Well, Jeff's photo led to the Australian War Memorial. They have several images of 'captured German photographs' showing 1257 - B01852, B01855, B01867, and B01912. 

Jeff's photo is a detail from B01852. (attached)

The AWM captions tentatively say Beirut, or 'Syrian Coast'. But the when, who, and why still remain to be answered.

Any suggestions welcomed.

Ian

Rats! Forgot to attached...

[stevenbecker]

Ian,

If correct No 1257 is FF 33L was taken on strenght of GNSG Mersin 14 May 1917 along with No's 1255, 1256, 1258

No 1256 was lost 1 May 1918

So the Germans/Ottomans ran this aircraft along the coast around Mersin and Kavak

No record it was sent down to Jaffa or Beirut

While it may be one of the Ottoman seaplane Companies (Deniz Tayyare Bolugu) along the southern coast

See this I made up;

1st Seaplane Company (Deniz Tayyare Bolugu) - Capt Savmi - 2nd Seaplane Company - Capt Ihsan - 3rd Seaplane Company - Capt Ahmet Ali 1-18 4th Seaplane Company - no details? possibly raised on paper around Batum and quickly disbanded-

Kavak Bogazlar Özel güçleri Deniz Uçus birlikleri Deniz Tayyare Bolugu  (Strait Special forces Sea Flight) - Capt Langenfeld (G)     (Deniz Tayyare Bolugu) (Alman Donanmasi Özel Müfrezesi Deniz Tayyare Grubu part German Seaplane Group) (1x Gotha WD1) (236) at Naga 7-15 shown 1x Gotha WD1 (238) to Kavak 11-15 shown 1x Gotha WD1 (237) 3x Gotha WD12) at Naga 1-16 and shown Bogazlar Özel güçleri Deniz Uçus birlikleri komutani (2x Gotha WD1 & 1x WD12 at Kavak 1-16 shown part 2x Gotha WD1 (238 & 240) at Zonguldak 4-16

formed 1st Seaplane Company 6-16 part then moved to Eregli 7-16 shown 4x Gotha WD12 from Nara made attacks on British held Islands (Tenedos) off Gallipoli between Feb to June 1916 shown 3x Gotha WD2 (izmir1 2 & 3) 3x (P) 3x (O) 36 men to Güzelyali near Izmir 8-16 shown 5x Friedrichshafen FF33 E/L 12-16 shown Gotha WD13 (izmir5) 1-17 shown 1x Albatros D3 1x Halberstadt-D 10-17 + Albatross W3 1917 + Gotha WD12 &13 shown at Güzelyali near Izmir 12-17 shown no aircraft working 1-18 shown 2x Friedrichshafen FF39 3-18 shown 5x Friedrichshafen's raided Tenedos 2-4-18 and 26-5-18 and June 1918 shown at Izmir 11-18 -

2nd Seaplane Company formed naval base (1x Gotha WD12 (Eregli2) at Eregli Black Sea 1-17 & 1x Hansa Brandenburg NW (555 - Eregli1) 7-17 shown Gotha WD12 (Eregli2) at Eregli 1-18 shown at Zonguldak 11-18 -

3rd Seaplane Company formed 3-18 (1x Sablatnig SF5 (971) & 1x Russian Morskoi 31) at Batum 5-18 - possibly 4th Seaplane Company formed (2x LVG seaplanes) at Batum 1918 - Bogazlar Özel güçleri Deniz Uçus birlikleri komutani  (Strait Special forces Sea Flight) formed 1x Gotha WD1 (238) at Kavak 11-15 to (2x Gotha WD1 (240) & 1x WD12 with 4x German pilots) at Kavak 1-16

Possibly the 1st Deniz Tayyare Bolugu around Izmir

Then again the German Seaplane group was all round the place

German Seaplane Sqn - Capt Leibmann (G) 1915 to Capt Goltz (G) 1917 to Capt Popp 9-17     

(Alman Donanmasi Özel Müfrezesi Deniz Tayyare Grubu or German Seaplane Group) 5 pilots and 5 obsvers and 10 Mechanics other accounts 3 Pilots and 3 Obsver with 6 Mechs + 3x Gotha WD1 (236, 237, 238) seaplanes at San Stefano 6-15 and a second base at Nagara near Canakkale 7-15

formed German Seaplane Sqn (Wasserfliegerabteilung) 7-15 shown 2x Gotha WD1 (239 & 240) at San Stefano 9-15 + Nieuport Hydravion from 1st Air Company shown 3x Gotha WD2 (286, 287, 289) 10-15 shown Gotha WD2 (287) was forced to land and destroyed at Tekridag on 29-11-15 Gotha WD2 (289) went to look for it and was also forced to land on 31-11-15 and Gotha WD2 (286) was destroyed during the search for (289) on 31-11-15 the Turks recovering (289) after November 1915 shown (6x seaplanes with Gotha WD1 (238) & WD2's & Gotha WD12 (424) 12-15 shown part Kavak (Deniz Tayyare Bolugu 2x Gotha WD1 (238 & 240) to base at Kavak Black Sea 1-16 with anti sub units at Chanak and Rodosto & Kuteli (Sea of Marmara) 1-16 - shown 6 (P) 6 (O)  29 ground crew and 48 Turkish soldiers (8x Gotha aircraft) 2-16 - moved part to Zonguldak Black Sea 4-16 shown part to Eregeli (cover the coal shipments) 7-16 shown Gotha WD12 5x Friedrichshafen FF33E/L 10x Hansa-Brandenburg NW/GNW at Yesilköy (split up to parts at Chanak Kavak and Eregil) 1-17     shown 2x Rumpler 6B1 (894 & 895) 2-17 shown Hansa-Brandenburg NW/GNW (771) 4-17 shown 9x Sablatnig SF5 at Yesilköy 8-17 shown part 2x Sablatnig SF5 moved near Adana Gulf of Alexandretta (replaced 4th Sqn to Amman) 12-17 unit now split between Adana to Chanak South - West Coast and Kavak Black Sea 12-17 shown Alman Deniz Tayyare Grubu Çanakkale 2x Friedrichshafen FF33 (1048 & 1124) 2x Sablatnig SF5 (1031) 2x Rumpler 6B2 (1450 & 1451) at Nara 1-18 reported incresed to 10 planes by end on month 1-18 shown part was moved to Chanak for raids out to Islands off Gallipoli late 1917 shown 5x DFW C5 arrived at Yesilköy of which 2x DFW C5 to Mersina Gulf of Alexandretta 9-18 to shown at Kavak on the Black Sea Strait 11-18 known types possibly with Sqn -  Gotha WD14 Gotha WD6 Sablatnig LVG SF5 Hansa-Brandenburg W29
 

So the Germans were at lest near Beirut and Jaffa, could one plane pay a visit to either town why not.

S.B

 

 

Edited 5 May , 2023 by stevenbecker

[Ian Burns]

This is from Ole Nikolajsen (see above), 

Chapter 12, p.210

GUARDING THE GULF OF ISKENDERUN

A German seaplane detachment had in November 1917 taken over the responsibilities for reconnaissance in the Gulf of Iskenderun and this was continued in the spring of 1918. A few missions were flown over Cyprus and the sea without any enemy forces being spotted. Misfortune however, struck the unit on the 15th of May. On the same day both aircraft of the detachment were destroyed: One had to emergency land near Ayas whereas the other hit a tent shortly after takeoff and crashed. When the first aircraft had been repaired it crashed on its way back to Mersin and was a complete write off. No further seaplanes were sent to the area. It was not until October that aircraft flew over the area again. The armies in Palestine were overrun on the 19th of September and soon the remnants started pouring north. The German officers in the armies had an almost paranoid fear of being cut off by forces being launched from Cyprus and despite the fact that every aircraft was needed in the rearguard actions two DFW C.V's out of a total number of five aircraft were dispatched to Iskenderun. Here they were ordered to reconnoitre Cyprus by General Liman von Sanders. As with all previous missions no British forces were seen either on the island or near it.

 

p.213

[He uses the photo identical to Jeff's at this location - his caption is interesting. I have contacted Ole to see if he can remember the source...]

FF.33 [1257] of the Mersin Detach. Visiting Genesareth Lake [Sea of Galilee / Lake Tiberias] in Palestine.

 

Chapter 14.

 p.252 (extract)

German Navy Seaplane Group (GNSG) - [Wasserfliegerabteillung]

Seeflieger Stationen Chanak, Kavak, Mersin

 FRIEDRICHSHAFEN FF 33L (150HP Benz Bz III)

1255    14 May 17       GNSG/Mersin

1256    14 May 17       GNSG/Kavak/Mersin 1 May 1918 wrecked

1257    14 May 17       GNSG/Mersin

1258    1917                GNSG/Mersin 1 May 1918 wrecked

 

The base at Mersin was on the southern Turkish coast close to the Gulf of Alexandretta / Iskanderun. Easy to find on a Google Map if you are unfamiliar with the area.

I suspect that 1257 was flown around the coast then directly across the sea from Mersin to Alexandretta. Then in stages down the coast to Beirut and the Sea of Galilee. This would have been well within the capabilities of the FF.33.

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Of cause if we believe the photos were taken at either Beirut or Jaffa, when as we know the planes operated around the Gulf of A

But as you and I said, I can see no reason they may have gone down there for a short time to show the flag.

S.B

[Ian Burns]

Steven,

Showing the Flag- especially as mid-1917 was a relatively quiet time in Palestine - the lull before the storm.

BTW Thanks for all the information on the Wasserfliegerabteilung. A very difficult unit to find information about. What is your source for all this?

Ian

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

From the sources you already mentioned, but also many more I can't recall at present but mined over many years of trying to sort these units out

Both German and Ottoman with little bits here and there, still not sure on all of it, as other then Ole's account, its unknown area.

Sorry I can't be of more help here.

Of cause you are aware that the small German Wasserfliegerabteilung deattachment didn't arrive at Mersin Adana area until late Nov 1917

Yes I see that the planes were Tos May 1917, but all German accounts say the Mersin det was sent down either later Nov or early Dec 1917

So any earlier then the Ottoman 1st Seaplane Co along the coast at Izmir to the Gulf of A, may be the owner of that plane?

Then again the number is clear its from the Germans GNSG, so the date must be later then Oct 1917

S.B

Edited 6 May , 2023 by stevenbecker

[Ian Burns]

That pesky FF33 photograph.

Location is actually Mersin. Which makes a lot more sense.

In the background, just forward of the lower prop blade, is a minaret with two balconies. I tried matching it with all the locations mentioned in out previous discussions - nothing close.

This morning the light finally turned on and I looked at Mersin...

The postcard also matches the building with square windows to left of the officer's head.

[Jeff Pickerd]

Ian,

Many thanks for putting up your follow up research into the photograph. From your identification of the city of Mersin from the old post card on the Turkish Mediterranean coast, it would now appear that Signaller Jamison got hold of his copy of the photograph at Jaffa, which led to his caption for the actual location of the seaplane being totally wrong. The modern day large port city bears no resemblance to that depicted in the photo, fascinating!

Jeff

[Rockturner]

Ian,

RNAS aircraft and Serials 1911-1919 by Ray Sturtivant and Gordon Page states that the it was a Halberstadt and that the pilot of the Short Admiralty 184 was Fl/Lt E J Burling if it's any help.

LonerangerVC

[Ian Burns]

Jeff. Thanks, I hate unanswered questions. Sometimes it is worth diving down a Google rabbit hole. 

Loneranger. Yes, and they got it from the original flight reports by the pilots and observers involved. It just did not feel right when I started looking into it. Misidentification is not unknown even in today's skies. I just needs a stubborn old ****** like me to question it!

Granted the Ottoman Air Force in WW1, and Palestine, is poorly covered in English. The few Turkish accounts I have struggled with (Thanks to Google Translate) seem to be extremely biased. But there is no evidence whatsoever in anything I have found of the use of Halberstadt scouts in the Gaza or coastal areas of Palestine. Whereas there are ample records concerning the use of the Albatros D.III and D.V (the latter in 1918 only) by German units.