Greek claims Dardenelles

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

I notice this account by the Greek pilot Lt Aristeides Moraitinis Z' (Greek) Squadron of 2 Naval Wing RNAS

"On 14 September Peel was gazetted for the DSC for his courageous persistence. Meanwhile, Moraitinis was hotly engaged with ten Turkish aircraft. In a conversation with fellow pilot Konstantinos Panagiotou, he described what occurred; 'I spotted a German aeroplane, but when I attempted to shoot at him my machine gun jammed. I turned off my engine and started to drop, and when I thought that he had lost me I levelled my aeroplane and started to repair the machine gun. As soon as I unjammed it, I started to climb, and then there was another German ahead. I attacked him, and in a short while I saw him going down. Although I was certain by the way he was falling that he had no hope, I wanted to make sure, but in the meantime I saw another one approaching. I attacked him also, but as I attempted to check that I had indeed shot him down, I heard my engine spluttering and, shortly after, it stalled. Fortunately, the propeller still continued to turn. 'I started to come down in a glide somewhere between the Straits and Marvia, and I was beginning to lose hope when I heard the sound of a machine gun behind me. I turned and saw a German shooting at me. I was at an altitude of only 800 metres. Once more, and full of despair, I tried to switch my engine on again and curiously enough this time it worked. You can understand what happened then! I was immediately on his tail, and I did not lose him until I saw him going down and disappearing.' After managing to limp back to Imbros with 20 holes in his aeroplane, including one through the fuel tank and struts, Moraitinis flew a third two-hour sortie in another Camel. Disregarding his insistance that he should not 'say a word about anything we cannot prove'

Sorry but I can't find any other accounts or confirm at what date he makes this claim of a fight with ten German planes and shooting one down?

The action was possibly over the Dardenelles so around Sept 1918? or is this incorrect?

He was talking about the fighting over the "Yavuz" in Jan 1918, so it may relate to Sept 1917?

Any ideas here

S.B

[michaeldr]

3 hours ago, stevenbecker said:

I can't find any other accounts or confirm at what date he makes this claim of a fight with ten German planes and shooting one down?

In the “Report of Rear-Admiral, Ægean, on the GOEBEN and BRESLAU Sortie,” he makes mention of ten enemy aeroplanes escorting the damaged Goeben into and up the Dardanelles. As you will recall, she then grounded on the spit off Kephez Point. The report also mentions the participation of Greek pilot(s) in the bombing of the stricken ship over the next few days, before her eventual escape to Istanbul.
The following is extracted from the RA's account as reproduced in the Mitchell Report

“0740.—"Goeben’’ hit by a mine. Ten hostile seaplanes escorted "Goeben” up the Straits. Aeroplanes bombed “Goeben" as she went up the Straits. 
0938.—When passing Chanak, one 112 lb. bomb hit "Goeben." Weather became misty and low clouds. 
1330.—Further attacks made. 
1830 to 2130.—Attacks made. Low fog bank prevented observation. Sixty-five flights made during day. 
21st January. Clouds obscured target. Five machines let go bombs at dawn. Weather cleared up later. 
1200.—Fourteen aeroplanes. No hits scored. 
During afternoon, four seaplanes and four aeroplanes carried out constant antisubmarine and mine patrol. One constantly patrolling over the swept channel into Mudros. 
1600.—Three B.E.12 R.F.C. aeroplanes arrived from Salonica. 
1800.—Night raid made by nine aeroplanes. Fifty-two flights made. Two tons of bombs dropped. 
22nd January. Thick mist in morning. 
0900.—Three B.E.12 R.F.C. aeroplanes arrived. Four D.H. aeroplanes dropped eight 1121b. bombs. One hit "Goeben." Reconnaissance made by aeroplane carrying Captain of E.l2. 
1345.—Eight 1121b. bombs dropped. 
2220.—Three seaplanes made night attack. 
2400.—Four direct hits reported by a second night raid. From 8 a.m. on 22nd to 8 a.m. on 23rd, 48 flights, 56½ cwt. of bombs dropped. 
23rd January. 
0922.—Eight 112 lb. bombs dropped. One aeroplane hit a tug alongside. 
1800.—Night raid. Between 8 a.m. 23rd, and 8 a.m. 24th, 49 flights, 72 cwt. of bombs dropped on  “Goeben" and Galata aerodrome. 
24th January. 
0807.—One direct hit claimed. 
1430.—Ten 112 1b. bombs dropped. Two special reconnaissances with submarine officers,  “Empress" arrived with reinforcements of bombs and pilots. 
2230.—Raid by two seaplanes. One direct hit on bow. After dark, five B.E. R.F.C. aeroplanes attacked. One direct hit reported. 
25th January. 
0620.—"Manxman" arrived bringing bombs. Between 8 a.m. 24th to 8 a.m. 25th, 34 flights, three tons of bombs dropped. Tests of torpedo carrying machines were unsatisfactory. 
27th January. 
1200.—"Camel” reported "Goeben” still in same position. Seaplane at night dropped 18 in. torpedo head on her estimated position. All anti-aircraft fire ceased. 
28th January. 
D.H.4 aeroplane reported "Goeben” left. "Manxman’’ had two seaplanes ready with 18 in. torpedoes. Total losses by this time were :— Blackburn Baby seaplane shot down in flames, 0800, 20th January; Greek R.N.A.S. machine shot down by anti-aircraft gun on 23rd p.m. In forenoon more raids were carried out. E.N.E. gale sprung up.”

The bombing was unsuccessful, with only one hit producing minor damage to a funnel casing. Note that this is in sharp contrast to the number of hits given in the RA's above report. 
Lesson: pilots' accounts are notoriously optimistic/inaccurate (though allowance should be made for bad,  mid-winter weather/visibility)

 

[michaeldr]

Looking at the account of this action as given by Nikolajsen in his 'Ottoman Aviation 1909-1919' [2^nd version, 2012] I cannot see any mention of Turkish/German losses

quote:

“In the afternoon "Yavuz" was safely beached inside the Straits having been escorted by 8 aircraft. The fight, however, was not over, for during the next few days, British aircraft, tried to destroy the cruiser. On the 21st, five Short seaplanes attacked in the morning and 14 land planes in various formations in the afternoon, but no damage was sustained. During renewed attacks on the 22nd a single bomb hit the ship and a sailor was killed. On the same day a German submarine took up a fight with a British seaplane and shot it down near Lemnos. To supplement the anti-aircraft guns on the cruiser itself, two Turkish batteries were rushed to the scene and soon provided covering fire from the shore along with numerous machine-gun detachments. Six British attacks were made by land planes on the 23rd. 0ne bomb scored a near miss hitting a pier made along side of "Yavuz". One attacker however, was shot down by Turkish fighter aircraft and another damaged. Finally, on the 26th, Yavuz was towed to Istanbul.

During 6 days of attack more than 30 enemy aircraft had dropped 180 bombs on the ship but only one hit and another was a near miss. After this incident, British aircraft for a while continued to harass the Turkish airfields as well as the seaplane base near Nara. During the night of the 28th near Seddülbahir one of the harassing Short seaplanes was hit by machine-gun fire and taken almost intact. The crew were taken prisoners and a great deal of information on the British operations were learned.”

[stevenbecker]

Michael,

Thanks I got mixed up with the Peel's DSC Sept 1918

Concidering Peel was shot down during this time (Jan 1918)

Schubert Wilhelm or (Georg)    VzFeldwebel to LtzS deR Marine    Flugobermaat Pilot Airforce (possibly 1st Aircraft Company) 5-15 shown German Seaplane Sqn (Wasserfliegerabteilung) 11-15 to 9-18    1915-18    (1892 at Bornsdorf ) from Freiwilliger Marine-Fliegerkorps 1914 - to Sdr-Kdo (Sonderkommando) der Kaiserlichen Marine in der Turkei 11-15 claimed in Gotha WD2 (424) with Lt Werdier (O) shot down a Farman from (French) Escadrille MF 98T 4-1-16 - claimed in Gotha WD2 (573) shot down balloon (SS8) off Mudros 14-10-16 claimed in Rumpler 6B1 (894) shot down a Farman near Imbros 26-2-17 claimed in Rumpler 6B (895) shot down third plane over Lemnos or the Gulf of Saros 12-10-17 - claimed in Rumpler 6B (895) shot down British seaplane and damaged another (possibly claimed with Meinecke shot down Lt Johnston and Schubert shot down Sopwith Baby Floatplane SubLt RW Peel 6 RNAS) attacking German SMS Goeben & Breslau near Islands off Dardanelles 17/20-1-18 RTG to  I. Seeflieger Abteilung 9-18 (spelling in Ole Nikoljsen) shown 1st Aircraft Company in Klaus Wolf's Book

It now makes sence.

Schubert and ;

Meinecke Emil    ObLt    Pilot Airforce shown 1st Aircraft Company Tayyare Boluk 10-15 to Fokker staffel 12-15 to 6th Aircraft Company 4-16 to flight instructor Aircraft School (Tayyare Mektebi) at Air station at Yesilköy shown to T/OC 1st Aircraft Company Tayyare Boluk (T/replaced Croneiss illness) 1-18    1915-18    (1892 in Mannheim died 2-5-75) from Feldflieger-Abteilung 66 (Eastern Front & Macedonia) to Turkey (flew a Fokker E3) claimed shot down 2 enemy planes 12-15 shown shot down a BE2c near Yenishir 27-1-17 shown shot down Farman F27 No 2 Wing RNAS (N3021) (FLt Maitland-Heriot/Jameson) both PoW near Chanak 12-2-17 shown shot down a Bristol Scout (D8996) No 2 Wing RNAS (Lt Bysshe) PoW near Hamidge 17-2-17 shown in LVG (LVG3) with Hüseyin Hüsnü (O) ditched on move to Yesilköy 17-4-17 claimed shot down a Sopwith Baby floatplane 6th Wing RNAS (N1445) (Lt Johnston) over the SMS Goeben near Nagara Point 20-1-18 & a Sopwith 1½ Strutter (Greek Lt Spyros Hambras) over Maidos 23-1-18 claimed shot down a Sopwith over Gulf of Saros 24-1-18 shown Sopwith Camel near Kilia 29-1-18 shown flew Albatroos D2 (AKD 1) (902/16) in 1918 RTG 10-18 (6 victories) awarded Baden Silver Military Karl Friedrich Order of Merit and Ottoman Silver Liakat Medal with swords and War Medal Later test pilot of Fokker-Werke then a member of the US Air Force also during the Berlin Airlift died in Canada (spelling in Ole Nikoljsen) shown in Klaus Wolf's Book 
 

As stated no Ottoman or Germans appear lost at this time so his claim is other strange one by this (Greek) airman. I saw he claims (9) nine planes of which none can be confirmed.

S.B

[MerchantOldSalt]

8 hours ago, stevenbecker said:

Mates,

I notice this account by the Greek pilot Lt Aristeides Moraitinis Z' (Greek) Squadron of 2 Naval Wing RNAS

"On 14 September Peel was gazetted for the DSC for his courageous persistence. Meanwhile, Moraitinis was hotly engaged with ten Turkish aircraft. In a conversation with fellow pilot Konstantinos Panagiotou, he described what occurred; 'I spotted a German aeroplane, but when I attempted to shoot at him my machine gun jammed. I turned off my engine and started to drop, and when I thought that he had lost me I levelled my aeroplane and started to repair the machine gun. As soon as I unjammed it, I started to climb, and then there was another German ahead. I attacked him, and in a short while I saw him going down. Although I was certain by the way he was falling that he had no hope, I wanted to make sure, but in the meantime I saw another one approaching. I attacked him also, but as I attempted to check that I had indeed shot him down, I heard my engine spluttering and, shortly after, it stalled. Fortunately, the propeller still continued to turn. 'I started to come down in a glide somewhere between the Straits and Marvia, and I was beginning to lose hope when I heard the sound of a machine gun behind me. I turned and saw a German shooting at me. I was at an altitude of only 800 metres. Once more, and full of despair, I tried to switch my engine on again and curiously enough this time it worked. You can understand what happened then! I was immediately on his tail, and I did not lose him until I saw him going down and disappearing.' After managing to limp back to Imbros with 20 holes in his aeroplane, including one through the fuel tank and struts, Moraitinis flew a third two-hour sortie in another Camel. Disregarding his insistance that he should not 'say a word about anything we cannot prove'

Sorry but I can't find any other accounts or confirm at what date he makes this claim of a fight with ten German planes and shooting one down?

The action was possibly over the Dardenelles so around Sept 1918? or is this incorrect?

He was talking about the fighting over the "Yavuz" in Jan 1918, so it may relate to Sept 1917?

Any ideas here

S.B

The attached pages of a report from the National Archives sent by wing Commander RNAS Headquarters answers your question as to whether there were any reports concerning the action you mention, and gives you a date but not sure it helps confirm any of the destruction of planes though it does mention two "downed EA. Gives you a biut more detail on pilots and planes concerned.

If you would like the remainder of the report let me know.

Tony

 

 

 

[michaeldr]

22 minutes ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

If you would like the remainder of the report let me know.

Tony,

That looks like a very useful asset - thank you for sharing and for the offer of the remainder too [PM on its way]. Thanks again

Michael