59 Squadron RFC Duren, France 1919; Charles Robinson Ashby Wallis

[Guest]

Charles Robinson Ashby Wallis, brother of Sir Barnes Wallis of Dambusters fame.

• Second Lieutenant in the Royal Horse and Royal Field Artillery (1916-1918).
• Honorary 2nd Lieutenant Observer/ Photographer in 59 Squadron RFC (1918-1919).

Morning,

I am researching my grandfather's military career in WW1. He joined the RA on leaving school and having been gassed, was seconded to the RFC where he survived a crash landing, a mission where his pilot 2nd Lieutenant Thomas Godwin Hobbs was shot and later sadly died and also a further engagement where he lost a finger.

I have quite a good level of detail from the London Gazette but am a little confused by his immediate post-war activities. He seems to have been posted to a few places then spent time posted again with 59 Squadron in Duren. It is this period before he returned to the Royal Artillery especially in Duren that I am struggling with so wondered if anyone could help?

His record post war is very untidy and difficult to interpret so here's my best shot!

• 20^th February 1919: Transferred to 44 wing covering the South West and on the 23^rd April the South East area for dispersal. 
• 6th May 1919: 28 wing of N.R. 559 (59 Squadron).
• 1st August 1919: D.D.J Cologne.
• 10th August 1919: SWA 10 group S.A.C.C.B (Cowes).
• 7th October 1919: Gosport and Cowes C.B.C.F; returned to unit.
• The undermentioned relinquish their commission on ceasing to be employed 2nd Lt. (Hon. Lt.) C. R. A. Wallis (Lt., R,G.A.). 8 October 1919

Anything anyone can offer including what some of the abbreviations mean would be of great assistance.

I have attached a few of the family owned photographs that CRA took whilst posted at Duren... 

With many thanks

Will

[FionaBam]

Magnificent photos!

[MikeMeech]

On 19/04/2023 at 11:01, WWallis said:

Charles Robinson Ashby Wallis, brother of Sir Barnes Wallis of Dambusters fame.

• Second Lieutenant in the Royal Horse and Royal Field Artillery (1916-1918).
• Honorary 2nd Lieutenant Observer/ Photographer in 59 Squadron RFC (1918-1919).

Morning,

I am researching my grandfather's military career in WW1. He joined the RA on leaving school and having been gassed, was seconded to the RFC where he survived a crash landing, a mission where his pilot 2nd Lieutenant Thomas Godwin Hobbs was shot and later sadly died and also a further engagement where he lost a finger.

I have quite a good level of detail from the London Gazette but am a little confused by his immediate post-war activities. He seems to have been posted to a few places then spent time posted again with 59 Squadron in Duren. It is this period before he returned to the Royal Artillery especially in Duren that I am struggling with so wondered if anyone could help?

His record post war is very untidy and difficult to interpret so here's my best shot!

 

• 20^th February 1919: Transferred to 44 wing covering the South West and on the 23^rd April the South East area for dispersal. 
• 6th May 1919: 28 wing of N.R. 559 (59 Squadron).
• 1st August 1919: D.D.J Cologne.
• 10th August 1919: SWA 10 group S.A.C.C.B (Cowes).
• 7th October 1919: Gosport and Cowes C.B.C.F; returned to unit.
• The undermentioned relinquish their commission on ceasing to be employed 2nd Lt. (Hon. Lt.) C. R. A. Wallis (Lt., R,G.A.). 8 October 1919

Anything anyone can offer including what some of the abbreviations mean would be of great assistance.

I have attached a few of the family owned photographs that CRA took whilst posted at Duren... 

With many thanks

Will

Hi

Yes, good photos and if it is of interest the fourth one down of the 59 Sqn. RE.8 is still showing its Contact Patrol markings.  These can be seen on the underside of the lower wings inboard of the national markings, a black band about one foot wide from leading edge to trailing edge of each wing.

Mike

[Guest]

Thanks Mike,

Please excuse my ignorance but what is a Contact Patrol Marking?

I assume this is some form of identification marker?

Thanks

Will

[MikeMeech]

2 hours ago, WWallis said:

Thanks Mike,

Please excuse my ignorance but what is a Contact Patrol Marking?

I assume this is some form of identification marker?

Thanks

Will

Hi

Yes, an identification marking.  The Contact Patrol undertaken by mainly Corps squadrons would fly over the battlefield during an attack to locate friendly infantry on the ground to find out where they had got to.  Various markings were used, for example variations of black bands under the wings, sometimes in combination with streamers (either on wing trailing edges, struts or rudder), flags or boards on trailing edge.  There were different markings for different Corps so the infantry could recognise their 'own' aircraft.   The aircraft would call to the troops by sounding a Klaxon and/or firing white Very Lights.  The troops were supposed to indicate their location by lighting ground flares and/or using various other means.  The observer would mark the location on maps and drop them at the relevant HQs.  Tank and Cavalry Corps support aircraft also carried special markings as did 9 Sqn. ammunition droppers at the Battle of Hamel.  These markings were supposed to be temporary and removed after the operation, although the black bands gradually fading are sometimes seen in photos.

Mike

[FionaBam]

19 hours ago, MikeMeech said:

Hi

Yes, an identification marking.  The Contact Patrol undertaken by mainly Corps squadrons would fly over the battlefield during an attack to locate friendly infantry on the ground to find out where they had got to.  Various markings were used, for example variations of black bands under the wings, sometimes in combination with streamers (either on wing trailing edges, struts or rudder), flags or boards on trailing edge.  There were different markings for different Corps so the infantry could recognise their 'own' aircraft.   The aircraft would call to the troops by sounding a Klaxon and/or firing white Very Lights.  The troops were supposed to indicate their location by lighting ground flares and/or using various other means.  The observer would mark the location on maps and drop them at the relevant HQs.  Tank and Cavalry Corps support aircraft also carried special markings as did 9 Sqn. ammunition droppers at the Battle of Hamel.  These markings were supposed to be temporary and removed after the operation, although the black bands gradually fading are sometimes seen in photos.

Mike

I keep wondering here....wouldnt ground flares also make their whereabouts known to the enemy ?

[WhiteStarLine]

25 minutes ago, FionaBam said:

ground flares also make their whereabouts known to the enemy

Hi Fiona, they certainly would, but as they were in the middle of an attack, the enemy already knew where they were.  What they were seeking to do was to let higher headquarters know where the attack had got to, if it was held up or forces had gone further than expected.  This helped coordinate artillery and other support. 

[FionaBam]

3 minutes ago, WhiteStarLine said:

Hi Fiona, they certainly would, but as they were in the middle of an attack, the enemy already knew where they were.  What they were seeking to do was to let higher headquarters know where the attack had got to, if it was held up or forces had gone further than expected.  This helped coordinate artillery and other support. 

Thank you very much . Essential information then for H.Q.

[MikeMeech]

4 hours ago, FionaBam said:

I keep wondering here....wouldnt ground flares also make their whereabouts known to the enemy ?

Hi

Yes, these worries were expressed by British, French and German troops who all used ground flares to indicate their location. However, they were also informed how important it was to light them so artillery knew where they were and to avoid friendly fire.  The ground flares were to be lit in the bottom of trenches or shell holes to cut down visibility of them from the ground.  Other methods were also used in conjunction with them or instead of if the troops run out of flares (I cover many of the devices used in an article in The Society for Army Historical Research, Special Publication No. 18, 'A Long, Long Trail A-Winding, Centenary Perspectives on the Great War', this was 'Showing the Line on the Western front in World War One').  During World War Two and the Cold War ground troops used coloured smoke to indicate their location, these produced more smoke than WW1 Ground Flares and would probably be more visible to the enemy, but the concern about 'friendly fire' from artillery or air strikes appears to have been thought more important.

With the free access to Online War Diaries at the TNA due to Covid lockdown it has been possible for me to go through large numbers of documents to find the occasional ones of interest to this subject.  This has included some Contact Patrol maps that had been dropped, here is a No.52 Sqn. example dropped to 25th Infantry Brigade (from their War Diary) in April 1917:

Mike

[FionaBam]

2 hours ago, MikeMeech said:

Hi

Yes, these worries were expressed by British, French and German troops who all used ground flares to indicate their location. However, they were also informed how important it was to light them so artillery knew where they were and to avoid friendly fire.  The ground flares were to be lit in the bottom of trenches or shell holes to cut down visibility of them from the ground.  Other methods were also used in conjunction with them or instead of if the troops run out of flares (I cover many of the devices used in an article in The Society for Army Historical Research, Special Publication No. 18, 'A Long, Long Trail A-Winding, Centenary Perspectives on the Great War', this was 'Showing the Line on the Western front in World War One').  During World War Two and the Cold War ground troops used coloured smoke to indicate their location, these produced more smoke than WW1 Ground Flares and would probably be more visible to the enemy, but the concern about 'friendly fire' from artillery or air strikes appears to have been thought more important.

With the free access to Online War Diaries at the TNA due to Covid lockdown it has been possible for me to go through large numbers of documents to find the occasional ones of interest to this subject.  This has included some Contact Patrol maps that had been dropped, here is a No.52 Sqn. example dropped to 25th Infantry Brigade (from their War Diary) in April 1917:

Mike

Thank you Mike. Very interesting. 

The map and the note , though difficult trying to write on your knee whilst being tossed about in an RFC WW1  plane and shot at by AA  , are both superb. Early form of Google Maps -" you/ they are here " . This visual material  instantly shows us the value of the RFC to the Army. 

These were dropped in canisters or similar I presume.

Also presume that the rate and nature of friendly fire incidents must have been so devastating at all levels in WW1 that WW2 strategy set about  flagging up our guys at almost but not quite any cost.

Edited 24 April , 2023 by FionaBam
Grammar / wording amendments

[MikeMeech]

17 hours ago, FionaBam said:

Thank you Mike. Very interesting. 

The map and the note , though difficult trying to write on your knee whilst being tossed about in an RFC WW1  plane and shot at by AA  , are both superb. Early form of Google Maps -" you/ they are here " . This visual material  instantly shows us the value of the RFC to the Army. 

These were dropped in canisters or similar I presume.

Also presume that the rate and nature of friendly fire incidents must have been so devastating at all levels in WW1 that WW2 strategy set about  flagging up our guys at almost but not quite any cost.

Hi

Mention is made of dropping maps in "map tubes" with streamer attached, Map Tube from RAF Museum below:

Streamer from RAF Museum:

The message streamer has a pocket, white part, with small lead weight, the above has a single button to secure the message, however, the map tube will not be securely held in this pocket (I have tried it) and there is no other attachment point on the map tube.  Other message streamers have two buttons/poppets in these the tube will be fairly well secured with one of the buttons/poppets fastened.  Of course the map could also be folded up tightly and squeezed into the message pocket of the streamer. 

Mike

[FionaBam]

2 hours ago, MikeMeech said:

Hi

Mention is made of dropping maps in "map tubes" with streamer attached, Map Tube from RAF Museum below:

Streamer from RAF Museum:

The message streamer has a pocket, white part, with small lead weight, the above has a single button to secure the message, however, the map tube will not be securely held in this pocket (I have tried it) and there is no other attachment point on the map tube.  Other message streamers have two buttons/poppets in these the tube will be fairly well secured with one of the buttons/poppets fastened.  Of course the map could also be folded up tightly and squeezed into the message pocket of the streamer. 

Mike

Original streamers . Wonderful 

Thank you. Very interesting. I read the other day in a Log Book  "Dropped 2 streamers" and wondered what the pilot meant.

Cheers 

Fiona 

[nils d]

While British streamers had lead weights in them the Germans, being more "material sensitive" , just put in a small amount of sand for a bit weight. How practical.

[FionaBam]

7 minutes ago, nils d said:

While British streamers had lead weights in them the Germans, being more "material sensitive" , just put in a small amount of sand for a bit weight. How practical.

Indeed . 

Sensible Germans . Why waste lead?

Germans have more detailed senses / pay more attention to detail in machinery?

Would explain their  recent maybe current dominance in car engine technology / electric toothbrushes # love my Braun hand blender .

[MikeMeech]

On 28/04/2023 at 13:52, FionaBam said:

Indeed . 

Sensible Germans . Why waste lead?

Germans have more detailed senses / pay more attention to detail in machinery?

Would explain their  recent maybe current dominance in car engine technology / electric toothbrushes # love my Braun hand blender .

Hi

I am not sure that this shows an army being "sensible", maybe just a material crisis?  A German streamer dropped in Palestine in 1917, now in an Australian collection, has it weighted with four small rocks and a small amount of grit.  If it is too light the message streamer is more likely to drift away from its target, at least with the standard lead weight it is more likely to be 'correct' for the drop and took up less space than sand or small rocks.  These message streamers were not meant to be single use and should have been returned to the squadron, most of these would have been dropped on HQs further to the rear so would have been a lot of the time.  According to the G 1098-33c Mobilization Tables for a two seat Service/Corps squadron in July 1917 the squadron would have had 60 Message Streamers on establishment and if not returned would have to be re-supplied from main stores.  You can imagine the task for ground crew if they had to stuff each one with sand along with their other responsibilities, it appears much more sensible to have them produced with the lead weight (I don't think there was any shortage in the allied camp).  The Germans did not just use streamers to drop messages according to a German document dated 1st January, 1917 ('Communication between Infantry and Aeroplanes or Captive Balloons', translated and issued by BEF GHQ 25th May, 1917) they also used the "Rauchmeldepatrone" (the French also used something fairly similar in use) described below in translated extract from document:

 

 

 

 

The German's did appear to be willing to waste 'lead' when using machine guns for signalling purposes!  The British used the Klaxon Horn for attracting attention and sound signalling purposes (to be fair some other countries also used MG fire for signalling purposes but I am not sure that it would have been noticed if a lot of fighting was going on).  During WW1 all the combatants had similar problems to solve and on the whole used a lot similar solutions, the technologies around at the time were also similar and no-one was really far ahead of others in most cases on the whole.

Mike 

[FionaBam]

47 minutes ago, MikeMeech said:

Hi

I am not sure that this shows an army being "sensible", maybe just a material crisis?  A German streamer dropped in Palestine in 1917, now in an Australian collection, has it weighted with four small rocks and a small amount of grit.  If it is too light the message streamer is more likely to drift away from its target, at least with the standard lead weight it is more likely to be 'correct' for the drop and took up less space than sand or small rocks.  These message streamers were not meant to be single use and should have been returned to the squadron, most of these would have been dropped on HQs further to the rear so would have been a lot of the time.  According to the G 1098-33c Mobilization Tables for a two seat Service/Corps squadron in July 1917 the squadron would have had 60 Message Streamers on establishment and if not returned would have to be re-supplied from main stores.  You can imagine the task for ground crew if they had to stuff each one with sand along with their other responsibilities, it appears much more sensible to have them produced with the lead weight (I don't think there was any shortage in the allied camp).  The Germans did not just use streamers to drop messages according to a German document dated 1st January, 1917 ('Communication between Infantry and Aeroplanes or Captive Balloons', translated and issued by BEF GHQ 25th May, 1917) they also used the "Rauchmeldepatrone" (the French also used something fairly similar in use) described below in translated extract from document:

 

 

 

 

The German's did appear to be willing to waste 'lead' when using machine guns for signalling purposes!  The British used the Klaxon Horn for attracting attention and sound signalling purposes (to be fair some other countries also used MG fire for signalling purposes but I am not sure that it would have been noticed if a lot of fighting was going on).  During WW1 all the combatants had similar problems to solve and on the whole used a lot similar solutions, the technologies around at the time were also similar and no-one was really far ahead of others in most cases on the whole.

Mike 

Thank you Mike. Really appreciate your explanation and the extract.

Its fascinating details like these systems of communication  that make the bigger operation work or not work or half work. Copying the other side also a good decision to make sometimes.