A flat general service button?

[assafx]

Hi,

Yesterday i was given four boxes of finds from a site near Jerusalem.

The site saw heavy fighting in December 1917.

With the many shell and fuze fragments, there were two flat buttons.

One of them was relatively clean and i was able to see the royal coat-of-arms. It appears that the loop on the back side was broken, and until it will be cleaned i have no manufacturer details on the back.

This is the first time that i've seen a flat button with the royal coat-of-arms and i was wondering on which uniforms it was used on?

Thank You,

Assaf

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, assafx said:

Hi,

Yesterday i was given four boxes of finds from a site near Jerusalem.

The site saw heavy fighting in December 1917.

With the many shell and fuze fragments, there were two flat buttons.

One of them was relatively clean and i was able to see the royal coat-of-arms. It appears that the loop on the back side was broken, and until it will be cleaned i have no manufacturer details on the back.

This is the first time that i've seen a flat button with the royal coat-of-arms and i was wondering on which uniforms it was used on?

Thank You,

Assaf

There were no flat buttons of that type Assaf.  They were General Service buttons for infantry (and some other corps) soldiers below the rank of officer.

The manufacturing process took thin brass plate and pressed them into domes before fitting a separate back plate with a fixed securing loop, leaving the inside hollow.

All that has happened to the buttons that you have is that over the century since, at some point they’ve been squashed flat, presumably by pressure from above that might have been caused by any of a range of different things.

The buttons were used on khaki drill jackets, service dress jackets, and greatcoats.

Edited 17 April , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[assafx]

Thank you,

They came from the same locus in the excavation, so the fact that we have two that might have been damaged / flattened in the same way might be possible.

 

[FROGSMILE]

26 minutes ago, assafx said:

Thank you,

They came from the same locus in the excavation, so the fact that we have two that might have been damaged / flattened in the same way might be possible.

 

Yes that seems likely.  They have squashed exactly as I would expect them to (they could also be dented easily enough).  When squashed the lip around the edge is formed where the backplate was fixed to the dome during manufacture.

You probably know that the two soldiers shown were for famous for accepting the surrender of Jerusalem.  They were the first to arrive on the scene.  Their jackets had the same type of buttons.

Edited 17 April , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[assafx]

Thank you Frogsmile.

I'm familiar with GS buttons. 

I just assumed that the domed part will break if squashed, hence my Flat GS buttons question.

considering the intensity of the fighting and the amount of shell fragments around,

it might be possible that a large stone fell on them broke the loop and flattened the buttons. well at least that what i hope had happened in this case.

 

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, assafx said:

Thank you Frogsmile.

I'm familiar with GS buttons. 

I just assumed that the domed part will break if squashed, hence my Flat GS buttons question.

considering the intensity of the fighting and the amount of shell fragments around,

it might be possible that a large stone fell on them broke the loop and flattened the buttons. well at least that what i hope had happened in this case.

 

Yes that’s possible, but it’s such a perfectly flat compression that I thought perhaps a very heavy weight on wheels, perhaps a siege gun, or it’s tractor, although I’m unsure what types of the latter there were in that theatre.

Edited 17 April , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[assafx]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes that’s possible, but it’s such a perfectly flat compression that I thought perhaps a very heavy weight on wheels, perhaps a siege gun, or it’s tractor, although I’m unsure what types of the latter there were in that area.

there were heavy guns in the Palestine front, not sure about the amount of tractors but there was a large number of trucks.

There was a light rail line, that passed there in 1918 maybe someone just placed them on the rail before the train passed?

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, assafx said:

there were heavy guns in the Palestine front, not sure about the amount of tractors but there was a large number of trucks.

There was a light rail line, that passed there in 1918 maybe someone just placed them on the rail before the train passed?

Yes those all seem possible and I particularly like your final suggestion.  It’s the typical sort of thing I imagine a bored soldier might do.  However, they’d have had to fix the button in place, perhaps under the rail and on a sleeper so that it wasn’t dislodged.

Edited 17 April , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[assafx]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes those all seem possible and I particularly like your final suggestion.  It’s the typical sort of thing I imagine a bored soldier might do.  However, they’d have had to fix the button in place perhaps under the rail on a sleeper so that it wasn’t dislodged.

yep, boredom leads soldiers to do a lot of silly / stupid things. I can remember a thing or two

 

Thank You !

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, assafx said:

yep, boredom leads soldiers to do a lot of silly / stupid things. I can remember a thing or two

 

Thank You !

Thank you for posting it, I find such surviving artefacts fascinating.

[battle of loos]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

There were no flat buttons of that type Assaf.  They were General Service buttons for infantry (and some other corps) soldiers below the rank of officer.

The manufacturing process took thin brass plate and pressed them into domes before fitting a separate back plate with a fixed securing loop, leaving the inside hollow.

All that has happened to the buttons that you have is that over the century since, at some point they’ve been squashed flat, presumably by pressure from above that might have been caused by any of a range of different things.

The buttons were used on khaki drill jackets, service dress jackets, and greatcoats.

good morning,

FROG, I have one question :

what is the difference betwen the 2 pouch that the british soldier have.

thank's for your answer.

otherwise, here is the general service button on the SD pat. 1902 :

michel

[FROGSMILE]

32 minutes ago, battle of loos said:

good morning,

FROG, I have one question :

what is the difference betwen the 2 pouch that the british soldier have.

thank's for your answer.

otherwise, here is the general service button on the SD pat. 1902 :

michel

Hello Michel, do you mean different style of breast pockets?  I’m not sure what you mean by “pouch”.

If you mean the two soldiers outside Jerusalem above, it’s not entirely clear, but the soldier on the left looks like he has two slightly modified pistol ammunition pouches and the soldier on the right has typical leather rifle ammunition pouches.

Edited 17 April , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[battle of loos]

7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Hello Michel, do you mean different style of breast pockets?  I’m not sure what you mean by “pouch”.

ah the automatic translator.

with the picture, it's so simple :

And why is the rank only found on one arm?

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, battle of loos said:

ah the automatic translator.

with the picture, it's so simple :

And why is the rank only found on one arm?

The pouches look like these below.

Rank on one arm will probably be because of a shortage of stripes.  I’ve read that the supply situation in the Middle East was more challenging than on the Western Front.  The regulations state both arms for all corps.

Edited 17 April , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[battle of loos]

thaks for your answer.

michel