SMLE No. 1 Mk III; Grenade Launcher

[Gunner Bailey]

I thought it might be Ishapore, and guessed Rifle Factory but it's so easy to be wrong with these marks. Thanks.

[JMB1943]

I thought that I might mention one major difference between the launcher shown in the OP and that made by H.W. Ward & Co Ltd, which was initially sent to me.

The cup made by Components Ltd has the broad band of “pineapple “ hatching around it, whereas the cup made by HW Ward has only a thin and shallow spiral groove (think vinyl record) from the bottom to the top of the cylinder. 

I wonder how slippery this latter pattern was when wet.

Regards,

JMB

 

 

[14276265]

JMB,

Lightly corrugating - or coarse turning with the lathe - most of the length of the barrel surface was indeed the alternative to knurling a band to facilitate a hand grip. Whether one manufacturer produced solely one finish and another the alternative, or whether firms produced both types is probably impossible to determine now. Did you get photos of the Ward example, particularly the location of the manufacturer's name or monogram?

The examples shown below are held by (left) the Imperial War Museum, London, and (right) the National Army Museum, London. (Photos courtesy of the respective websites.) Both have the corrugated finish but unfortunately no manufacturer markings visible on the barrel. The pawl carrier of the base of the NAM example is marked S&B and has the maker's monogram of Davis Gas Stove Ltd - a letter D in a diamond.

The left hand photo is a good example of the random labelling often exhibited by the IWM. It is clearly not a 3-inch Stokes bomb.

 

265

 

Edited 24 April , 2023 by 14276265

[JMB1943]

Hello 265,

I did take a couple of shots of the Ward launcher; contrary to my previous post, the finish looks much closer to oil-blackened than black-enamelled.

As you can see, the makers name is stamped upside down on the very end of the cylinder, just before the conical surface of the cup; it is to the left of the screw in the photo.

Sorry, but I don't seem to be able to save a rotated image!!

Regards,

JMB

[14276265]

Thank you JMB, for those additional images.

I have only ever handled three discharger cups and do not recollect any having manufacturer markings - I think all three were WWII-era, of Indian origin. It is very helpful to see one made by Ward & Co.

I assume the base was not marked to Ward & Co?

 

265

 

 

[JMB1943]

265,

Your assumption is correct.

There were absolutely no other markings at all that I could see on the Ward discharger; had there been, you can be certain that I would have photographed them.

Regards,

JMB

 

[peregrinvs]

Interesting items. Thanks for sharing.

Unfortunately these are a problematic item for collectors in the UK as they are classed as a prohibited weapon in their own right - irrespective of whether you have working examples of the other items required to use them as a weapon.

They can be deactivated, but leaves them with a pin welded across the middle which means you can’t insert a grenade. A cosmetic solution for concealing the pin I’ve seen is to cut a grenade body so that it slots around the pin. I’ve also seen cast resin replicas for sale.

[JMB1943]

265,

There is currently a thread about these dischargers here,

 https://www.gunboards.com/threads/no-1-mk-iii-components-ltd-bournbrook-birmingham-i-finally-got-one.1240869/#post-11250801

that shows some various stampings that would be of interest to you.

Regards,

JMB

[14276265]

Thanks, JMB.

Some good clear markings there. The Morum & Co. base is a nice find on the Components barrel - apart from making complete discharger cups, Morum also had a contract to rectify some of the early examples that had been sent out to France. The document below illustrates.

 

265

 

 

 

Edited 26 April , 2023 by 14276265
Resized image

[JMB1943]

265,

You having posted the names of the makers of the British grenade dischargers has piqued my interest in these.

In case you have not seen it, the National Army Museum has at least one example, as shown in photo below. (courtesy of NAM).

The base is marked N. P. F. L., (presumably for National Projectile Factory, Lancaster) on the cone and on the cross-bar.

Regards,

JMB

 

[14276265]

Thank you, JMB. That is definitely one from the Lancaster NPF and is interesting to think that the barrel was from steel originally destined to be 18-pr gun ammunition.

The National Army Museum also has a complete discharger made by Components Ltd - image attached, courtesy of NAM. If you are looking for a base made by Components Ltd to replace your Indian-made part, the markings indicate what you are looking for - CLtd, some inspection marks, and the Smith and Burn initials.

If you see a Morum barrel at any point - or any other makers' cups - please do grab a photo.

 

 

265

[JMB1943]

265,

Likewise thanks for the Components Ltd base, and yes I’ll be sure to get photos of anything that I can.

Regards,

JMB

 

[JMB1943]

265,

See

https://www.rifleman.org.uk/Enfield_Rifle_Grenades_and_Dischargers.html

for two photos, very likely of the same discharger mounted on an SMLE.

The base appears to show Tw (hazard a guess at Triumph Works??) while the cross-bar shows S I R.

Possibly another mix-n-match combination.

Regards,

JMB

 

 

 

 

[14276265]

JMB,

The discharger shown on the Rifleman web page is indeed another composite example with an Indian base. The barrel is likely to be made by Townmead Engineering Works, assuming the Tw is the maker's monogram; the monogram for Triumph Cycle Co was TCC.

Note that the Indian base pieces are milled to accommodate the bayonet boss on both sides. The British WWI bases are milled out on only one side, although the change to both sides -  "so as to be reversible on the rifle" - was approved in May 1918. However, looking at the numbers I suspect that none were so manufactured before the end of the war.

 

265

Edited 27 April , 2023 by 14276265

[JMB1943]

265,

See,

https://www.ima-usa.com/products/original-british-wwi-s-m-l-e-cup-grenade-launcher-for-mills-bomb?variant=38445204485

and a photo of a wing-nut on a different launcher; was that a field repair or a factory variation?

The first, second and fourth photos go together (photos courtesy of Gunsinternational. com)

Sorry to have to admit that I had not noticed the difference in the milling of the cross-bars of British vs Indian manufacture!!

Regards,

JMB

 

[14276265]

JMB,

 

Thank you for those screen grabs and the link. It proves that some British WWI discharger cup bases were modified to be milled out on both sides after all, so good to see the physical evidence. It is also a bonus to see a base clearly stamped with the monogram of H W Ward & Co. The discharger base on the link is a Davis Gas Stove Ltd example.

If nothing else the double sided milling provides a date range for manufacture - from June to October 1918.

The appearance of a wing nut was not a field modification but a factory alternative. The TW Supply weekly report for 25th May 1918 states:  "Dischargers - GHQ, France, have asked that the bases of future dischargers shall be milled out for the bayonet-boss on both sides, so as to be reversible on the rifle. Trials of bases so modified, having proved successful, this will be introduced as soon as possible. A butterfly nut in lieu of a thumb screw for the port-grip has also been arranged."

The complete approval for the change was dated 30 May 1918, and stated : "Discharger rifle grenade, No.1 MkI. (a) For an additional recess in base to fit bayonet boss on opposite side of recess. (b) For substituting of a butterfly nut for present ranging nut."

A further approval of 8 October 1918 provided an option for wing nut material. "Grenade dischargers. For wing nuts to be made of malleable iron or brass, as an alternative to mild steel."

 

265

 

[JMB1943]

265,

A variety of makers represented in some very good photos found on these sites, including H.W. Ward; Saxby & Farmer.

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/grooved-no-1-markiii-grenade-launcher-photos-added.1103533/

#post-9825989https://www.gunboards.com/threads/british-grenade-cup-launchers-time-in-service-and-known-manufactures.1180629/#post-10599551

 

https://blasterfactory.com/jawa-ion-blaster-replica/

I think that I have now exhausted all of the websites that I can think of to search, so probably my last posting here for a while.

Regards,

JMB

PS I have seen a photo of a brass wing-nut, and comment to the effect that they are quite common; cannot now locate it.