Sanctuary woods cemeteries and field dressing post

[BONEHEAD]

I am currently researching an unknown  found and recovered near sanctuary woods, believed KIA in may 15 at frezenberg ridge. 

why would he have been taken to sanatuary woods to be buried. When there was a cemetery nearer, along with three others of his regiment, incedently all are unknowns at this point, but belive we know who they are. 

 

 

 

 

[kenf48]

59 minutes ago, BONEHEAD said:

why would he have been taken to sanatuary woods to be buried. When there was a cemetery nearer, along with three others of his regiment, incedently all are unknowns at this point, but belive we know who they are. 

 

Sanctuary Wood was a concentration cemetery.  The Cemetery Details on CWGC site lists the cemeteries from which they were brought in, including men buried by the Germans.

If the request was not so cryptic members may be able to provide more information. Where and when your man fell and who originally buried him has not been shared.

This, for example, is a concentration report for three men of the 1st Battalion Royal Scots (among others) killed on the 14th/ 15th May 1915 and 'brought in' to Sanctuary Wood, apparently from Zillebeke.

It can be found under Pte. Early

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/477674/richard-early/

The report, courtesy of CWGC, is dated 22nd May 1928 and was checked on 23rd July 1928.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BONEHEAD]

They were buried clealry in 15 but the original cemetery were lost later, the bodies were found, but we not interned at sanctuary woods, but in bedford house  which is another surprise. 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

2 hours ago, BONEHEAD said:

sanatuary woods

13 minutes ago, BONEHEAD said:

sanctuary woods

As kenf has pointed out above, it's Sanctuary Wood.

[BONEHEAD]

Apologises missed spelled

[BONEHEAD]

2 hours ago, kenf48 said:

Sanctuary Wood was a concentration cemetery.  The Cemetery Details on CWGC site lists the cemeteries from which they were brought in, including men buried by the Germans.

If the request was not so cryptic members may be able to provide more information. Where and when your man fell and who originally buried him has not been shared.

This, for example, is a concentration report for three men of the 1st Battalion Royal Scots (among others) killed on the 14th/ 15th May 1915 and 'brought in' to Sanctuary Wood, apparently from Zillebeke.

It can be found under Pte. Early

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/477674/richard-early/

The report, courtesy of CWGC, is dated 22nd May 1928 and was checked on 23rd July 1928.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have the reports For when they were found and interned at Bedford house but not for before. 

[LDT006]

11 hours ago, BONEHEAD said:

I am currently researching an unknown  found and recovered near sanctuary woods, believed KIA in may 15 at frezenberg ridge. 

You will need to provide more details if you want help.

Are you saying that the unknown is now buried at Bedford House, concentrated from one of the cemeteries at Sanctuary Wood but believed killed at Frezenberg Ridge?
Do you have a link to the document? Regiment? Date?..........

[BONEHEAD]

They were 17th lancers att 2nd life guards, and yes now in bedford house all 5 

[jay dubaya]

Benjamin Hambly?

[BONEHEAD]

He is one

[jay dubaya]

I tried to build a case for these men several years ago, but the evidence struggles to support the case.

The question marks in the CoG-BR surrounding the ID of the regiment offer no clue as to how this came to be, nothing is noted and no effects were forwarded. Hambly’s grave would be the only one that could be positively identified by the L/Cpl chevron.

The location of the graves at I.18.d.9.0 is too far south (in my opinion) for these men to have died on 13th May - they should be buried around I.5.b+d.
We must question this former recovery location at I.18.d.9.0 - the CoG-BRs note  (from memory) around 60 recoveries from the 50 yard square on the north western boundary of Sanctuary Wood. Almost all graves were not marked by crosses which suggests they were not registered graves nor does this area appear to have been a cemetery, more a dumping ground for the dead just behind the front line at the time.

Thr 2nd LG were in this exact location between 27th - 30th May 1915. Sadly this date range is not reflected in any of the 17th Lancers deaths in question, all of which state 13th May. I vaguely remember looking for any existing service records but I cannot find any in my notes today so have assumed they are all lost. I’ll go back check the relevant diaries later.

As it stands, unless you’ve got some further evidence the CWGC will not accept this as a valid case. We need to address what I believe is a date of death anomaly of which I failed to do back when.

FWIW it probably is Hambly’s grave, the claim could only ever be ‘believed to be buried here’ for the others which the CWGC no longer accept.

 

[BONEHEAD]

This is the project, 2nd life guards diaries are of equally no help other than  the five who left on the 12th to with an officer recce the trenches (assuming these 5 were the 5 ors) but not named,  which were originally  near hoodge but the orders were changed, I suspect after they left, as no one would have known, they had been killed, I suspect all given the 13th as the KIA, but again no mention of casulties in the life guards records by name, nor can we find the after action roll calls. 

So we have a strong consences  of location and why they were there but equally confusion as one of the men  was found behind German lines, I'm currently waiting on the Germans to check their records and any confirmation they can provide. 

I understand that trench burial was used at the previous cemeteries. Used I understand for  large casulties and quickness , hence no crosses, before they all disappeared

Now checking Ramc records as a dressing station was located in the woods behind. 

I'm. No expert but I do like a challenge

 

We know with out any doubt the majority of reservist 17th lancers were attached 2nd life guards. We have the complete  nominal role, as well as the 21st lancers. 

 

[BONEHEAD]

I have copies of the effects of all 5 soldiers which all state presumed KIA 13th, in the 2nd life guards records, lt Blofield and 5 or left to recce trenches near hoodge, on the 12th, but in the mean time orders changes at 7.30pm, was it possible he and the recce party had already left,  to recce 27th bde trenches as per original orders, clealry yes. 

And blofeld and the 5 were listed  as casulties,( in the margin of the margin of the 12th) Blofield originally listed as KIA on the 13th, but later amended to the 12th,  so if the 5 are indeed our lancers, they also could have been KIA on the 12th, killed by the same blast. As discribed in Hamblys death. 

 

 

Now to the grave of the lcpl this could be one of two men, Hambly or Williams, Williams was a substantive lcpl acting cpl at the time, and of course Hambly was also a Lcpl at the time. William may not have had his  cpl chevrons, if he had would have been easier to identify. So the plot thickens, like wise the location of Hambly having been killed. As well as blofeld, a lot of maybes.  

Williams was listed as having been also killed in a trench, so we're they all taking cover when a shell landed and killed them. 

As to the body found buried behind German trenches, only assumption I can think, was wounded captured, and then died and buried. But the location would need to be identified. 

 

 

Edited 10 April , 2023 by BONEHEAD

[jay dubaya]

Are the graves in question now UBS 17th Lancers including a L/Cpl or UBS including a L/Cpl or just UBS?

 

[BONEHEAD]

Just UBS all listed as 17th lancers 

[jay dubaya]

How sure can we be about these being May 1915 casualties? The 2nd LG were in and around woods 1/2 mile south of Hooge 31st October/1st November 1914, 14 2nd LG casualties and 15 17th Lancers for 31st October.

[BONEHEAD]

3 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

How sure can we be about these being May 1915 casualties? The 2nd LG were in and around woods 1/2 mile south of Hooge 31st October/1st November 1914, 14 2nd LG casualties and 15 17th Lancers for 31st October.

Those were losses at zandavorde, and the positions were on a forward slope. We have the casulties list for the 17th on that day. 

[jay dubaya]

Personally I think this is a non runner and won’t be accepted by the CWGC at the first hurdle, but I wish you the best of luck in your quest.

[AOK4]

On 10/04/2023 at 14:07, BONEHEAD said:

I'm currently waiting on the Germans to check their records and any confirmation they can provide.

 

May I ask who you have contacted? I am 99.99% certain that nothing will come from Germany as I am very well acquainted with the German sources and the German institutions involved nowadays. They have no clue whatsoever how to search in their records or how to interpret them etc.

[BONEHEAD]

1 hour ago, AOK4 said:

May I ask who you have contacted? I am 99.99% certain that nothing will come from Germany as I am very well acquainted with the German sources and the German institutions involved nowadays. They have no clue whatsoever how to search in their records or how to interpret them etc.

I have a contact in the German army who does the same reserch  who  has access to the army records office so keeping fingers crossed 

[AOK4]

58 minutes ago, BONEHEAD said:

I have a contact in the German army who does the same reserch  who  has access to the army records office so keeping fingers crossed 

They barely have records and what they have is very difficult to access unless you know the German army of those days very well (knowledge which is lacking in nowadays Germany).

[BONEHEAD]

Which why his a general and a good friend, yes I know records are hard to find and a large number distroyed but can always hope