13/Essex Regt - Somme area.

[Guest scott leader]

Come you Essex followers.

An MM to the 13th with a LG date as - 21/10/1916. to me would suggest that it was for Delville Wood as they were in the area late July/early August??

18094 Pte. F.A.James.

Cheers

[Max Poilu]

13th moved to Welcome Wood, Vaux sur Somme 20th July 1916. 23rd marched to Bois de Tailes. 25th to 'Triangle'. 28th in action at Delville Wood. 31st into reserve trenches. Next few days Mine Alley area. 5th August to trenches facing Waterlot Farm (in fornt of Trones Wood). 6th August back to Mine Alley. 8/9th August back to Trones for attack at Waterlot Farm/Guillemont Station area. (My wife's Great Uncle wounded in this attack). 9th August Mine Alley. Thence to Happy Valley, Meaulte, Saleux, La Chaussee.

If you need any help or maps etc please let me know - I have quite a bit of research on this period due to the family connection.

[AGWR]

I didn't think that the 13th Essex were in Delville Wood on the 28th. My understanding was that they went into the Wood for the first time at 9 p.m. on the 29th. The following afternoon, about 40 men of the Essex drove out some Germans, who had gained a footing in the Wood. Maybe, your man won his MM for his part in this action?

Giles Poilu,

Which unit was your wife's great uncle serving in?

Regards

AGWR

[GrandsonMichael]

I tend to agree with AGWR as to the exact date the 13th was holding Delville Wood when they were counteracting persistent enemy attacks.

I don't know about the date in the London Gazette, but what if the M.M. was won earlier? There was a raid during the night of the 1st and 2nd July consisting of 3 officers and 100 other ranks against German trenches. Fierce fighting and 6 other ranks recieved the Military Medal. (Burrows, Volume 6, page 392 & 393.

Michael

[Max Poilu]

Here are the extracts I have from the Btn diary for the 28th July onwards (all souces from the PRO originals):

28th: Bn. took over trenches vacated by 17th Middx at Breslau Support. Bn went into action in Delville Wood. B and D Coys who were supporting the 2nd S. Staffs Regt were attacked by the enemy who were repulsed. Intense artillery activity during the whole of the night.

29th: Intense artillery activity on both sides. Minenwerfer activity by the enemy.

30th: A party of enemy snipers were discovered and 40 men drove them out. Enemy made an attack which was repulsed. Intense artillery activity on both sides continously during day and night.

31st: Artillery activity continued throughout the day on both sides. Bn relieved by 1st Kings Rgt and took over reserve trenches.

Casualties during tour of Delville Wood:

Killed 39

Wounded 138

Shellshock 20

Missing 17

Wounded at Duty 7

This from Burrows:

On July 23rd Bois de Tailles was reached and two days later the Essex were in reserve trenches in the Triangle...Three days aterwards (July 28th) they moved up to Breslau Support. B and D companies pushed forwards that night to support the South Staffs...holding the North Edge of the Wood. The Regiment held on and beat back the enemy bombers...

There was a raid during the night of the 1st and 2nd July consisting of 3 officers and 100 other ranks against German trenches. Fierce fighting and 6 other ranks recieved the Military Medal. (Burrows, Volume 6, page 392 & 393.

Michael,

My wife's Great Uncle won an MM in this action! I was at the very field (Vincent Trench in Zouaves Valley nr Souchez) where it took place two weeks ago, just on the side of the A26 motorway. I have copies of reports, maps and most of the associated diary entries regarding this raid from the PRO if anyone wants more info.

I have a list of the six men who won the MM in this raid and I am afraid Pte James is not one of them. The Battalion was not involved in 'offensive' action again until the time in Delville, they did occupy a few 'hot spots' though.

The attack at Waterlot Farm on the 9th August is an amazing story and Papillon's report (Lieut Colonel commanding 13th) makes fascinating reading - he is very forthright in stating his feelings regarding the lack of preperation and support and subsequent casualties. Great Uncle was wounded in this attack and returned to join the 9th Essex. He would later be killed in the fighting for Infantry Hill at Monchy le Prux near Arras on the 17th July 1917.

[GrandsonMichael]

Right. I'm not going to argue with an expert on Delville Wood

You've done extensive research Giles, my compliments.

It's great to have found out so much about your wife's Great Uncle. Does she own his medal?

I'm very interested in the War Diary material you have acquired. I'm in the process of transcribing the War Diaries of the 2nd Battalion Essex Regiment (first 3 months done and awaiting copies of the entries for the rest of 1914 and 1915)

Burrows is very scant with information on the action on the 9th August, while it was pretty tough. Is the report from Lt.-Col. Papillon part of (appendix?) the War Diary entries you have?

Michael

[Guest scott leader]

thanks to all.

Yes most prob for the 30th August, would be great to find out more about this?

[Max Poilu]

Michael,

On the contrary I am certainly no expert! My interest in the 13th (and 9th) Essex is really only with regard to G. L. Brown's service and specifically three events; His MM on 1st July 1916, his wounding on 8th August 1916 and his death on 17th July 1917 (with 9th).

I can only go by the official diaries and was surprised to hear two Pals say the 13th may have been in Delville at a different time - I would love to learn more. There seems little documented on this in the Bn Diary - maybe there is more at Brigade/Divisional level?

Regarding the attack of the 9th August I will try and get some scans on here tomorrow. I visit the Somme every few moths and always spend many days in that area - the large field opposite Trones Wood facing Guillemont adjacent to Guillemont Cemetery (Asquith etc).

Funny enough, regarding the medals (pair and MM), they are in the family but we are afraid the keeper may one day die and pass them on to a 'non-interested sibling' and they will disapear - this week we have been discussing writing some sort of letter but it's not easy to say is it?!

[AGWR]

Giles/ Michael,

I have been through the Brigade/ Divisional Diaries for this period, although I have to confess that I was not looking for anything specific to 13 Essex.

My understanding was that all troops, apart from 2nd South Staffs and 17th Middlesex were withdrawn from the wood by 6 a.m. on 28th July.

After two days of counter-attacks and intense artillery activity, the Middlesex War Diary then speaks of being relieved by 13 Essex at 9 p.m on the night of 29th July.

According to SDGW, the 13th Essex had 10 ORS killed on the 28th, 10 on the 29th and 28 on the 30th.

By way of comparison, 2nd South Staffs had 10 ORS killed on the 28th, 30 on the 29th and 3 on the 30th.

17th Middlesex had 38 ORS killed on the 28th, 4 killed on the 29th and 5 on the 30th.

These figures would appear to show that the 13th Essex were, at the very least, in the immediate vicinity of Delville Wood on the 28th July. The diary entry that you provide would certainly suggest that B & D Coys (in support of the Staffs) were actually attacked by the enemy in Delville Wood.

Regards,

AGWR

PS I would be very interested in seeing your maps in relation to 9th August. Very sad to hear about the 'non-interested sibling'.

[Max Poilu]

Gentlemen,

Some scans with regard to Aug 9th; Papillon's report part 1:

[Max Poilu]

Part 2:

[Max Poilu]

This is a short report from Captain Round:

[Max Poilu]

Continued:

[Max Poilu]

Next is a map from the PRO (Brigade IIRC) diaries:

[Max Poilu]

This is a (poor) copy of the trench map detail (from September '16) - thick black lines are modern roads - same as the old roads though! New Trench is dotted. Crosover point of old railway line and Fleet Street Trench (24d,4,8) is roughly where the private memorial to 2nd Lt Marsden Smedley now stands:

[Max Poilu]

And finally a rough map that I use on the ground:

[Max Poilu]

For some reason I have very few pics of the area but here is a typically atmospheric winter Somme day. Mrs P. is at the edge of Trones Wood, the field is where New Trench stood and the 13th advanced. On the horizon Guillemont town is on the far right, the grain tower to the left (follow the track up) marks the rough position of the old station and Waterlot Farm was further over to the left.

[AGWR]

Thanks for posting these maps. I will definitely be taking them to France at the end of the month.

Regards,

AGWR

[Max Poilu]

Here is the relevant portion of the modern IGN map which is very useful too:

[GrandsonMichael]

On the contrary I am certainly no expert!

said he...I'm certainly not convinced of that after seeing the picture you posted of Mrs P.!

Thanks for posting all this information on the 13th Bn. during the 9th August. Very valuable to us Essex Battalion researchers. Very thourough research indeed.

this week we have been discussing writing some sort of letter but it's not easy to say is it?!

There MUST be a way!

Yes most prob for the 30th August, would be great to find out more about this?

Braincrunching and further research are absolutely needed here. We don't give up very easily, so don't give up hope.

Cheers Guys,

Michael

[Max Poilu]

Thanks Michael!

The report makes interesting reading don't you think? You should see the reports for the 9th Bn Monchy-le-Preux action leading up to and including the night attack of 17th July 1917 in which George Brown was killed - it was madness. Having seen the ground the position was impossible. But that's another story I guess...

[GrandsonMichael]

You should see the reports for the 9th Bn Monchy-le-Preux action leading up to and including the night attack of 17th July 1917 in which George Brown was killed - it was madness.

Giles,

I can't believe the coincidence! Apart from the fact that my mother was born on the 17th July 1917, just last week I was researching that very period - to be exact the 11th July 1917:The Long Trench and Hook Trench in Burrows.

One of our GWF pals is researching the soldiers who fell in WWI who are commemorated in his village. He happened to talk to an elderly lady who mentioned her father won a DCM. All we had was this fact, his name and service number and another name she mentioned. Together we were able to find him and a mate (?) of his and they were both enlisted with the 9th Battalion and fought very courageously on the 11th July and this is where and when the lady’s father won his medal.

If you have information in addition to what is mentioned in Burrows for this day I think we could make this old dear even happier than she is now…

Michael

[shaymen]

All

Absolutely Fascinating thread - amazing how this forum throws up these coincidences with pals all over researching different aspects that happen to overlap.

As you say Michael if this throws up any additional info re Hook trench on the 11th - it would make an old lady in my village even happier

Best Regards

Glyn

[AGWR]

Giles,

While sorting out paperwork today, I came across some pages from the Brigade War Diary for the period spent in Delville Wood. If you would like copies, please let me know.

Regards,

AGWR

[Max Poilu]

Great stuff!

Michael, thanks for your note - I emailed you last night.

AGWR, I would certainly be interested to see those reports, can you scan them? I will have a look through for the July '17 stuff - I have pages and pages of diary info, maps etc. Just looking now I have a full Brigade report for the enemy attack 11/7/17...there are other reports as well as a minute by minute telephone transcript for the 17th. Again, I have been to Monchy' a few times and the ground is unchanged - it is rather a little visited place. It must have been a real hell hole and a devilish place to attack. The best thing may be to pop it on a new thread as this is going to get very slow with images.