My Grandfather 1898-1951

[Dayve]

Hi everyone. Can anybody help me in identifying this cap badge of my Grandfather?

He died at the age of 52 before I was born.

Also, can it be confirmed that on the lower left arm the stripe/bars are, 3 wound stripes under a Good Conduct chevron?

My brother and myself are going through old family photos.

Here’s an old, rather rough Black & White photo I am in the process of colorising.

(Being an ex-professional photographer)

Thanks in advance.

Dave

Edited 27 March , 2023 by Dayve

[ss002d6252]

18 minutes ago, Dayve said:

Hi everyone. Can anybody help me in identifying this cap badge of my Grandfather?

He died at the age of 52 before I was born.

Also, can it be confirmed that on the lower left arm the stripe/bars are, 3 wound stripes under a Good Conduct chevron?

My brother and myself are going through old family photos.

Here’s an old, rather rough Black & White photo I am in the process of colorising.

(Being an ex-professional photographer)

Thanks in advance.

Dave

What was his name - and what details about him do you have ?

Yes, 3 wound stripes under a long service/good conduct chevron.

Craig

[Dayve]

Thanks Craig 👍

His name: Fredrick Victor Osbourne Miller.

Born: 1898

[RaySearching]

Would it be possible to post the original photo

may make identifying the cap badge easier for our forum pals

 

Ray

[Dayve]

Photo_2023-03-27_204735.pdf

[Ron da Valli]

It looks like the Hampshire Regiment. There is a Frederick Victor Miller 20708 Pte Hampshire Regiment. Yes they are 3 wound stripes.

Edited 27 March , 2023 by Ron da Valli

[Dayve]

I’m gobsmacked.

Thanks Ron da Valli 

(Like the name)

 

[RaySearching]

Pte 20708 Frederick Victor Miller  Hampshire Regiment 

entererd the theater of war on the 21/12/1915 with the 15th Battalion later serving with the 12th and 11th  battalions demobilised on the 25/6/1919 and placed in class z reserves

he was entitled to the 15 star British war medal and victory medal

 

Ray

 

[RaySearching]

Pte  20708 F V Miller may be on a sick and wounded list somwhere

His wounds during his service possibly the reason for his transfers to 12th and 11th battalions

 

The war diarys for the Hampshire regiment can be downloaded from the National Archives (free) you will have to register first, also free

 

Ray

[Dayve]

Thanks RaySearching

[Ron da Valli]

47 minutes ago, Dayve said:

I’m gobsmacked.

Thanks Ron da Valli 

(Like the name)

 

The name is a combination of being part Italian & living in Wales (Rhondda Valley)

[Dayve]

Yeah I got it 👍

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Dayve said:

Yeah I got it 👍

This is how his insignia looked during WW1, no crown.  Just Hampshire Regiment then.  The letters were worn on shoulder straps and the cloth badges on the arms.

[Dayve]

Wow, thanks FROGSMILE. 😀

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, Dayve said:

Wow, thanks FROGSMILE. 😀

You have the badges now to help you with colourising your photo, so here also are images of the service dress, similar to that which he wears, retained as a sealed pattern in the Imperial War Museum in London.  Note that the shade of khaki is quite brownish.  It was officially described as a “Drab” shade.

Edited 28 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Allan1892]

20 hours ago, RaySearching said:

Pte  20708 F V Miller may be on a sick and wounded list somwhere

Here is one of them (image courtesy of Find My Past) -- unfortunately no date mentioned. Shows that he was in 'B' Company of the 15th Battalion. He received a GSW (Gun Shot Wound) to his left thigh.

Also second image attached (courtesy of Find My Past) shows that he was granted 4 days R & A in May 1918 when he was with the 12th Battalion.

[RaySearching]

Thanks Allan

Its a shame that no date is given on his wounding with the 15th Bn it would have given a timeframe for his transfer to the 12th Bn

it is most likley that he was transferred to the 12th Bn when he had recovered from his wounds

 

Dave

I much  prefer the black and white photo of your grandfather I would just clean it up, retouch and sharpen it 

The colourised version is far to garish.  Just my opinion of course, other opinions may be available

I am assuming the original image would have been  in sepia ?

 

Ray

[Dayve]

Thanks to you all.

Thanks FROGSMILE for the colour reference. 👍

Thanks Allan1892 for copy of the records. 👍

Thanks Ron da Valli. 👍

Thanks RaySearching for the input. 👍

The problem with colouring up old photos is that many old photos don’t take to it very well, due to the lack of detail, contrast & tones.

As I stated the coloured photo here, is in ‘the process of colorising’ it is a copy of a copy of a copy. I do not know who has the original.

And as you can see the ‘coloured photo’ has a rather bleached look about it (that’s the poor a quality of the original b/w available) which colouring can make a photo look like a painted dummy.

If the the black & white photo is too hard (harsh: with very few grey tones or lacking of grey tones) the colours don’t take very well.

But onwards and upwards.

Dave

P.S.

It seems two of my ancestors, father and son, were involved in the 1805 Battle of Trafalgar.

On the British side of course.

Cheers 🍺

Edited 28 March , 2023 by Dayve

[Dayve]

Almost forgot:

Thanks ss002d6252 👍

[Allan1892]

15 hours ago, RaySearching said:

Its a shame that no date is given on his wounding

I have looked at all of the men that were listed on the same document as Miller to try and find a medical record that ties in with the medical reason on that document. My findings were limited to only two ---

#10950  Wilson -- document shows GSW Thigh -- additional medical record shows that he was discharged to duty from the 139th Field Ambulance on the 25 October 1917. Medical reason shown as I.C.T. Leg (R) -- I.C.T. = Inflammation of the Connective Tissue

#18378  Burley -- (also with 'B' Company, 15th Hants) document shows G.S.W.1X.1.1(rest missing) -- additional medical record shows that that he was admitted to Number 11 CCS (no date mentioned) with Gas Shell W (wound?) and transferred to 7 Ambulance Train on the 22 August 1917. His entry also shows that he had received treatment for 133 days but it doesn't look right as numerous pages before and after the page he is on all show 133 days of treatment no matter what the medical reason was -- tonsillitis 133 days ?? -- diarrhoea 133 days ?? abscess right buttock 133 days ??

Thoughts on Miller being wounded in August 1917??

[charlie962]

Here's a Daily Casualty List entry. List published about a month after actual even so perhaps actual wounding late Sept 1916.

So we now have approx dates for two out of his three woundstripes. 

Charlie.

 

Forename F V

Surname Miller

Casualty Status Wounded

Rank Private

Service Number 20708

Regiment Hampshire Regiment

Category Nco's and Men

Daily List Date 26th October 1916

Source Daily Casualty Lists (via The Genealogist)

 

[Dayve]

Thanks Allan1892 👍 

Thanks charlie962 👍

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Agree wholeheartedly.
Automated image colorization software runs its own algorithms, with the sole purpose of producing a pleasing image. The downside is that it discards lots of data that is often very important from a historical perspective.

What the software interprets as 'noise' may be removed, but could be subtle shadows or creases that might be important in interpreting a uniform, badge or button, even body parts like moles, scars and so on .

By all means, carry on colorizing, as it certainly can add realism and a sense of  being a modern photo, but bear in mind if you want to extract as much historical information as possible, then do so only from the most original copy of the photo.