Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders sporran

[Httc]

Hello all,

Can anyone please confirm which colour of sporran belt would have been worn with the swinging six, by a regular soldier during WW1?

TIA,

HTTC

[6RRF]

Ordinarily it would have been black, but its possible that white buff may have been used for shiny parades requiring a bit of swank at home - say for pipers. Latterly they were white buff, but I'm talking post war when kilts weren't worn on active service

Edited 25 March , 2023 by 6RRF

[Httc]

Thank you for response. I’ve attached a couple of photos. I wouldn’t imagine the person doing the colourisation would have added a white belt if it wasn’t obvious in the original photo but who knows. In the b&w portraits you never really see the belt, leading me to believe it was a dark brown to match the brown leather Sam Browne belts?

[6RRF]

A search on Bing identifies the coloured photie as taken at Hythe [presumably as in the Romney Hythe and Dymchuch Railway] in 1928

[6RRF]

Sorry to be so abrupt, but the dogs were demanding I take them on their post-prandial walk.

Anyway, back to the point, you can tell the photie is post war by the collar-dogs - conspicuously absent on the first picture, the lack of equipment but presence of sporrans and that light railway equipment - which if WW1 would be encountered in France with rifles, equipment, aprons etc

[Httc]

Thank you, that’s very helpful. 

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, Httc said:

Hello all,

Can anyone please confirm which colour of sporran belt would have been worn with the swinging six, by a regular soldier during WW1?

TIA,

HTTC

As a general rule whenever possible the sporran belt would match the waist belt, so whitened buff leather if worn with Slade-Wallace equipment belt.  Brown leather if worn with 1914 equipment or other brown leather waistbelts.  It wasn’t always possible of course depending on what was available, but that was the intent.  See variations below and at this link: https://www.pinterest.co.uk/saoirse89/argyll-and-sutherland-highlanders-pre-war-world-wa/

Edited 25 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Httc]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

As a general rule whenever possible the sporran belt would match the waist belt, so whitened buff leather if worn with Slade-Wallace equipment belt.  Brown leather if worn with 1914 equipment or other brown leather waistbelts. 

That’s what I had assumed and it’s good to hear that it’s also your understanding to be the case. Many thanks.

[FROGSMILE]

33 minutes ago, Httc said:

That’s what I had assumed and it’s good to hear that it’s also your understanding to be the case. Many thanks.

Here’s another from the 1920s where it hasn’t been possible to match them up.  Overall white seems the more common, as the sporran was more associated with the old scarlet and blue undress uniforms, although it had been worn with khaki during the 2nd Boer War. 

[6RRF]

sliding off to one side on this one, I'm intrigued by the leather belt equipment. I've seen it before on post-war photies but know nothing about it

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, 6RRF said:

sliding off to one side on this one, I'm intrigued by the leather belt equipment. I've seen it before on post-war photies but know nothing about it

It’s the 1903 bandolier equipment waistbelt and ammunition pouches without the upper bandolier part (known as ‘drill order’).

Introduced originally with a focus on mounted infantry (and by default cyclists too) there were waist pouches for the equipment too.  Once it was replaced by 08 web equipment it was dispersed to other arms.

It also became the standard equipment for the British-Indian Army as a whole, and was still used by British infantry in some Colonial garrisons where 08 Web was not available.  See: http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1903/1903_introduction.html

Edited 26 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[6RRF]

Yes, of course the trouble with the 08 equipment, good as it was, it was a case of wearing all or nothing 

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, 6RRF said:

Yes, of course the trouble with the 08 equipment, good as it was, it was a case of wearing all or nothing 

Not entirely I don’t think, as it was still possible to wear just a waist belt and ammunition pouches, albeit secured by shoulder braces.  It goes down in history as the first equipment designed to put on and off like a jerkin and so with the weight supported on the shoulders.  Ironically the load carrying vests of today have more in common with 08 equipment than 37, 44, and 58 equipments.

[6RRF]

I remember being horrified by the 37 Pattern when I came across it - the amount of straps and buckles necessary for a small load. As you say, at least once it had been properly fitted the 08 was a good load carrier

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, 6RRF said:

I remember being horrified by the 37 Pattern when I came across it - the amount of straps and buckles necessary for a small load. As you say, at least once it had been properly fitted the 08 was a good load carrier

Yes I think you’ve summed up the shortcomings of the designs that came after the 08 pattern very well.  What’s often not realised is that the only reason the switch to 37 pattern took place was a desire for an ammunition pouch that could take the magazines of the Bren light machine gun that was introduced along with it, the idea being that the infantry section accompanying the Bren gun would carry enough spare magazines to sustain the gun for one or two offensive actions, in addition to flimsy 50 round bandoliers of 5-round clips and a couple of Mills (No 36) grenades for each man.

Edited 26 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

In the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, ORs wore a white sporran strap while WOs and officers used a black strap.  There is some photographic evidence that the Levee Dress sporran was worn with a white strap; however, this is far from universal and may have been subject to the whim of the individual officer or the whim of the CO at the time.

[FROGSMILE]

36 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

In the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, ORs wore a white sporran strap while WOs and officers used a black strap.  There is some photographic evidence that the Levee Dress sporran was worn with a white strap; however, this is far from universal and may have been subject to the whim of the individual officer or the whim of the CO at the time.

There’s plenty of variety in the photos and links above.

The term “ORs” means all ranks below commissioned officers, thus including warrant officers.  It is the equivalent of the US “enlisted men”.

”Rank and file” means full corporal and below.

Then there are “warrant officers, staff sergeants, and sergeants” comprising the others.

Edited 26 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[6RRF]

17 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I think you’ve summed up the shortcomings of the designs that came after the 08 pattern very well.  What’s often not realised is that the only reason the switch to 37 pattern took place was a desire for an ammunition pouch that could take the magazines of the Bren light machine gun that was introduced along with it, the idea being that the infantry section accompanying the Bren gun would carry enough spare magazines to sustain the gun for one or two offensive actions, in addition to flimsy 50 round bandoliers of 5-round clips and a couple of Mills (No 36) grenades for each man.

Flimsy those 50 round bandoliers may have been, but they were still serving them out in my day !

[FROGSMILE]

57 minutes ago, 6RRF said:

Flimsy those 50 round bandoliers may have been, but they were still serving them out in my day !

Yes I recall them well, they were later much improved by manufacture from nylon replacing cotton without any increase in weight.  They also no longer rot in humid environments.

Edited 27 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE