Can anyone kindly identify the cap badge in the picture, the nearest I've got is the East Surrey and the Royal Sussex.

[Mike Bourne]

[tankengine888]

Hello and welcome to the forum!
Splendid photograph!

I am tempted to say that it is the Royal East Surreys... Perhaps someone else can confirm/contest?

Zidane

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. I think Sussex is correct, the plume is obscured by the bend  in the photo, but the scroll shape looks right to me. Do you have a potential name for the man? I might be wrong but he looks like he’s wearing a lighter type of khaki which could suggest a warmer climate. 

[tankengine888]

2 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Welcome to the forum. I think Sussex is correct, the plume is obscured by the beans in the photo, but the scroll shape looks right to me. Do you have a potential name for the man? I might be wrong but he looks like he’s wearing a lighter type of khaki which could suggest a warmer climate. 

Sussex I could agree with Michelle.

I saw that the tunic was lighter, but I thought it was just my sleep deprived mind. Perhaps Malta/Mesopotamia/India?

Zidane

[FROGSMILE]

Michelle bang on the money as per usual.  Royal Sussex Regiment corporal wearing khaki drill in a warm climate some time from 1916 onward going by his soft cap.  He’s bought himself a typical bazaar cane to replace the swagger stick he would have had at home.

He’s quite smartly turned out and appears a man at home in uniform, which suggests to me he might be 1st Battalion (regulars) who remained in India throughout the war**.  Failing that two other options are 1/4th Battalion (TF) who were in Egypt between Dec 1915 and May 1918, and 2/6th Battalion (TF - ‘Cyclists’) who were in India between Feb 1916 and Oct 1918.

**although men typically rotated to battalions in France to be replaced by men who had been wounded but recovered.  Many of the men in the battalion at the end of the war were commonly not necessarily those at its start.

Edited 16 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Mike Bourne]

Many thanks for the welcomes and your input. His name is Charles Walter Harris born 1897 in Walthamstow, London but his family moved to Handsworth, Staffs just after, Handsworth is now part of Birmingham. From his age I'm guessing he would have served quite late in the war but he certainly survived.

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Mike Bourne said:

Many thanks for the welcomes and your input. His name is Charles Walter Harris born 1897 in Walthamstow, London but his family moved to Handsworth, Staffs just after, Handsworth is now part of Birmingham. From his age I'm guessing he would have served quite late in the war but he certainly survived.

Tracing his medal index card and the medal roll details linked to it might help to reveal his enlistment date, and whether, or not, he was a regular, a Territorial (auxiliary part-timer), or a conscript.

Edited 16 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Mike Bourne]

Not had much luck so far searching for military records but I'll keep trying, that's why I'm trying to nail down his regiment.

[RaySearching]

Best candidate I can find

 

Only awarded the pair so did not enter the theater of war before 1st Jan 1916

 

Ray

[Mike Bourne]

Thanks Ray, very helpful. Can you tell me what the T means as in Corporal, his pic clearly shows he was a corporal, is that the 7th Reserve Cavalry? Also the other Regs and Nos aren't his I assume?

Coarse or Game?

[Michelle Young]

Temporary I’d assume. The other regiments and numbers are all his, there was no unique service number at the time of the Great War. 

[FROGSMILE]

44 minutes ago, Mike Bourne said:

Thanks Ray, very helpful. Can you tell me what the T means as in Corporal, his pic clearly shows he was a corporal, is that the 7th Reserve Cavalry? Also the other Regs and Nos aren't his I assume?

Coarse or Game?

In that context the T usually stands for temporary meaning among other things that it carried no pensionable rights.

The 5th Garrison Guard Battalion Royal Sussex Regiment became the 17th Service Battalion in May 1918.  This usually meant posting out men of lower medical grading and replacing them with fitter soldiers to bring the unit up to front line standard.

He was originally a reserve cavalryman but when it was realised that there was less need for cavalry (the great anticipated breakthrough never occurred) and continuous need for more infantry he was clearly weeded out.

The G prefix to his regimental numbers intrigues me as it’s consistently applied and I’m wondering if he’s been categorised as suitable for Garrison units.  @kenf48might be able to advise.

Edited 16 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Michelle Young]

Medal Index card courtesy of Ancestry. 

[Mike Bourne]

Many thanks to all for your help, amazing how quickly it was resolved in as much the picture was taken when he was in the Royal Sussex Regiment. Brilliant.

[FROGSMILE]

16 hours ago, Mike Bourne said:

Many thanks to all for your help, amazing how quickly it was resolved in as much the picture was taken when he was in the Royal Sussex Regiment. Brilliant.

It was towards the end of the war so hence his (to me) noticeably relaxed demeanour.  It seems odd though that he’s in khaki drill uniform intended for warm climates, as all the records seem to suggest that the 5th Garrison Guard Battalion was somewhere in a static base type location somewhere in France.  I doubt that he ever saw action with the 17th Service Battalion that his unit evolved to become.

Interestingly there is mention at the following link of one of the men posted in to bring the 17th up to frontline standard from its previous garrison category (again note the G number): https://shalomsussex.co.uk/leonard-george-marks/

Edited 17 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[kenf48]

15 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

In that context the T usually stands for temporary meaning among other things that it carried no pensionable rights.

The 5th Garrison Guard Battalion Royal Sussex Regiment became the 17th Service Battalion in May 1918.  This usually meant posting out men of lower medical grading and replacing them with fitter soldiers to bring the unit up to front line standard.

He was originally a reserve cavalryman but when it was realised that there was less need for cavalry (the great anticipated breakthrough never occurred) and continuous need for more infantry he was clearly weeded out.

The G prefix to his regimental numbers intrigues me as it’s consistently applied and I’m wondering if he’s been categorised as suitable for Garrison units.  @kenf48might be able to advise.

The ‘G’ prefix denotes he was enlisted for ‘General Service’ or ‘GS’ - not ‘Garrison’

The Service Record of GS/23747 Arthur Rowson (age 20) 21st Lancers/Reserve Cavalry has survived.

A Londoner he attested under the extended Derby Scheme on the 22 February 1916.  The Scheme offered an element of choice as an incentive, so rather than be conscripted to the Infantry he ‘volunteered’.  Mobilised to the cavalry on the 4th May 1916 and posted to the Reserve Cavalry.

He was posted to the Infantry and the 7th Bn RWK as described above on the 1st December 1916 and allocated the number G/24869  joining the Battalion in the field on the 10th December 1916.

From there his service diverges from Cpl Harris assuming he was single and enlisted under the extended Derby Scheme born in 1897 he would be mobilised any date from March 1916 see https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/

We can’t say when he was posted to the 11th Battalion RWK but we know that Battalion was disbanded in France in March 1918. It is likely he was either sick or wounded and repatriated to the U.K. and on recovery posted from the Depot to that Battalion.  Might be worth checking the casualty lists.

24854 Morgan enlisted in the Welsh Horse (TF) and followed the same path as the numbers ‘bracket ‘ Harris we can guess he followed a similar route from the cavalry and did not serve in the field France with them or is unlikely to have done so in spite of the Medal Roll.

 

[FROGSMILE]

11 hours ago, kenf48 said:

The ‘G’ prefix denotes he was enlisted for ‘General Service’ or ‘GS’ - not ‘Garrison’

The Service Record of GS/23747 Arthur Rawson (age 20) 21st Lancers/Reserve Cavalry has survived.

A Londoner he attested under the extended Derby Scheme on the 22 February 1916.  The Scheme offered an element of choice as an incentive, so rather than be conscripted to the Infantry he ‘volunteered’.  Mobilised to the cavalry on the 4th May 1916 and posted to the Reserve Cavalry.

He was posted to the Infantry and the 7th Bn RWKw as described above on the 1st December 1916 and allocated the number G/24869  joining the Battalion in the field on the 10th December 1916.

From there his service diverges from Cpl Harris assuming he was single and enlisted under the extended Derby Scheme born in 1897 he would be mobilised any date from March 1916 see https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/

We can’t say when he was posted to the 11th Battalion RWK but we know that Battalion was disbanded in France in March 1918. It is likely he was either sick or wounded and repatriated to the U.K. and on recovery posted from the Depot to that Battalion.  Might be worth checking the casualty lists.

24854 Morgan enlisted in the Welsh Horse (TF) and followed the same path as the numbers ‘bracket ‘ Harris we can guess he followed a similar route from the cavalry and did not serve in the field France with them or is unlikely to have done so in spite of the Medal Roll.

 

Thank you for that rundown Ken, I appreciate your shining a light into dark corners and recall that you have explained the ‘G’ prefix before.  My memory now not as good as it once was.  I’d guessed that he might have been sick or wounded at some point, as so many were, and that that probably led to his movements between battalions, but I was puzzled that he had no visible wound stripes and I still don’t understand why he was wearing khaki drill uniform in the photo with Royal Sussex Regiment cap badge.  That part of his service, i.e. after leaving the Queen’s Own Royal West Kent Regiment, still seems unclear. 

Edited 17 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[kenf48]

As for the Royal Sussex he was in all probability posted to the 17th Battalion on the 26th February 1919.  Interestingly the men I have found in this number series came from the 7th RWK so whether Harris went back to the 7th after the 11th was disbanded we can't say without a service record. We could look further into the Rolls to discover any patterns but not tonight for me.

They embarked Marseille for Egypt on the 28th May 1918 after a period of leave, and disembarked at Port Said on the 2nd June. They served in Egypt and Palestine, hence the tropical uniform and photographed somewhere in that theatre..

They began demobilising from February 1920,

Sorry for two posts struggling with a slow iPad.

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, kenf48 said:

As for the Royal Sussex he was in all probability posted to the 17th Battalion on the 26th February 1919.  Interestingly the men I have found in this number series came from the 7th RWK so whether Harris went back to the 7th after the 11th was disbanded we can't say without a service record. We could look further into the Rolls to discover any patterns but not tonight

They embarked Maraeille for Egypt on the 28th May 1918 after a period of leave, and disembarked at Port Sai on the 2nd June. They served in Egypt and Palestine, hence the tropical uniform and photographed somewhere in that theatre..

They began demobilising from February 1920,

Thanks Ken, that’s neatly answered the khaki drill uniform conundrum and I can see now that he probably never served with the 3rd Garrison Guard Battalion and didn’t join the unit until after it had already become the 17th Service Battalion.  It all seems a lot clearer now.

[kenf48]

9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

that’s neatly answered the khaki drill uniform conundrum

It appears you were right about his relaxed pose.

Taken at peek at the Medal Roll for the Royal Sussex, they seem to have listed Reserve battalions of the RWK, which like the Reserve Cavalry did not serve overseas. 

That said the men apparently transferring from the 7th Battalion RWK begin at T/Sgt 31050 Field and (coincidentally) end at 31259 Field, in other words a draft of at least 209 men.

Rowson's cavalry service is not mentioned on the RWK Roll and that Roll accurately reflects his service with that regiment.

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

It appears you were right about his relaxed pose.

Taken at peek at the Medal Roll for the Royal Sussex, they seem to have listed Reserve battalions of the RWK, which like the Reserve Cavalry did not serve overseas. 

That said the men apparently transferring from the 7th Battalion RWK begin at T/Sgt 31050 Field and (coincidentally) end at 31259 Field, in other words a draft of at least 209 men.

Rowson's cavalry service is not mentioned on the RWK Roll and that Roll accurately reflects his service with that regiment.

 

His final service completed in Egypt appears likely to have been entirely benign, so no wonder he looks so chilled.  This case seems particularly typical of the way that over the course of the war the Army became ruthlessly pragmatic and matter-of-fact in the way that it moved drafts of men around via a mix of those reaching the age of 19, those repurposed from other arms, and those recycled from former sick and wounded. 

Edited 17 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[kenf48]

The War diary for the 7th Bn RWK seems to be missing a section from August 1916 to 1917 though it may be just photographed out of sequence.

That said the diary of the 7th RWK for the 26th February 1919 has the following entry:-

Crown copyright

 

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

The War diary for the 7th Bn RWK seems to be missing a section from August 1916 to 1917 though it may be just photographed out of sequence.

That said the diary of the 7th RWK for the 26th February 1919 has the following entry:-

Crown copyright

 

Thanks Ken, a very neat conclusion to the story of this man elicited from a single faded photograph.

[Clayton wearn]

On 16/03/2023 at 12:18, tankengine888 said:

Hello and welcome to the forum!
Splendid photograph!

I am tempted to say that it is the Royal East Surreys... Perhaps someone else can confirm/contest?

Zidane

Hi. Looks more like royal Sussex 

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, Clayton wearn said:

Hi. Looks more like royal Sussex 

Yes, that was resolved a month ago, while the enthusiasm is commendable it helps to read the entire thread.