CROONAERT Posted 6 April , 2005 Share Posted 6 April , 2005 Please see my attached (1917) trenchmap extract showing the area immediately north of Bapaume. What I'm trying to find out is what does the "monument commemmoratif" at the crossroads near Favreuil actually commemmorate? (I presume this is the item that gave "Monument Wood its name?). The crossroads and area was fought over during the "Battle of Bapaume" on Jan.2nd and 3rd 1871 and I was wondering (hoping) if this was a monument to this engagement (a victory for the Armee du Nord under the command of General Faidherbe). If it is a 1870-71 War monument (and if it still exists!), could I please ask some kind soul who might find themselves in the area to take a photograph of it for me? As some of you might know, this war is a "pet subject" of mine and I've studied and visited most of the battlefields, yet a monument to the Battle of Bapaume has always eluded me for some reason, even though I knew that one existed (not including the statue of Gen. Faidherbe himself, in Bapaume). I'd be extremely grateful for any assistance here. Thanks, Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIRKY Posted 6 April , 2005 Share Posted 6 April , 2005 Hi I have always wanted to know a bit more about this other war, is there a good readable book on this area, Battleground series type of thing? Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gem22 Posted 6 April , 2005 Share Posted 6 April , 2005 Dave I'm going that way at the end of this month. Time permitting I'll get a photo. But I somehow doubt that the French would put up a monument to a battle that they lost to the Prussians. A monument to the dead perhaps; but a monument to the battle!!!!!! Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobpike Posted 6 April , 2005 Share Posted 6 April , 2005 There is a Franco-Prussian Monument about 2kms north of Bapaume on the left hand side of the N17 where the D10E crosses it from Favreuil to the east & Bievillers to the west. It is marked on the Michelin 1:200,000 atlas, Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 6 April , 2005 Share Posted 6 April , 2005 Dave - this is the main Franco-Prussian monument, which Bon mentions above, to the Battle of Bapaume which I think was in January 1871? The statue of General Faidherbe in Bapaume also commemorates it. The monument appears in several WW1 photos and is still there today. I don't have a modern day photo of it, unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 6 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 6 April , 2005 But I somehow doubt that the French would put up a monument to a battle that they lost to the Prussians. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Garth. The French actually won this battle and caused the withdrawal of the German troops , under Goeben, to St. Quentin (where the result was reversed about 10 days later). At the time it was quite a victory and I know for a fact that it was commemmorated with a monument being erected circa 1880. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 6 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 6 April , 2005 Dave - this is the main Franco-Prussian monument, which Bon mentions above, to the Battle of Bapaume which I think was in January 1871? The statue of General Faidherbe in Bapaume also commemorates it. The monument appears in several WW1 photos and is still there today. I don't have a modern day photo of it, unfortunately. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks for all the answers. (It was January 1871, Paul - January 3rd) Glad it's still there. Now the next question - There used to be an ossuaire containing the remains of the fallen in the vicinity. Does that still exist? Cheers, Dave. (PS, Garth, I'd be extremely grateful if you could get me a picture. Thanks ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 6 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 6 April , 2005 I have always wanted to know a bit more about this other war, is there a good readable book on this area, Battleground series type of thing? Apart from "official histories", etc, you'll struggle to find a great deal on the Battle of Bapaume. However, there is a fine account of it by someone who was there in "La Guerre telle qu'elle est (Campagne de 1870-71)..." by Lt.Col. Leonce Patry. I believe this has now been translated into English. The nearest to a "Battleground Europe" type thing (in English) that I've found (for another battle of the war) is "A Day of Battle" by David Ascoli, about Mars-la-Tour, August 1870. There's also an Osprey "Campaign" series book about the battle of Gravelotte - St.Privat, and a couple of "Men-at -Arms" books about the French Army of this period. There are many general histories to be encountered also, one of the best English language ones possibly being "The Franco-Prussian War" by Michael Howard. To get the best out of this war, though, it's best to brush up on your French and (especially) German reading skills! Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gem22 Posted 6 April , 2005 Share Posted 6 April , 2005 Dave I will do my best to get a photo. My thoughts on the battle being a defeat for the French were based on info I found via Google. One piece said that the Prussians lost about 500-600 men whereas the French lost about 2000. The second piece said that the Prussians were forced back to Favreuil but only temporarily. if I got it wrong I apologise. I know little or nothing about that war and could easily be guilty of selective reading. i was mostly interested in seeing if the monument could be to the Grande Armee- but probably not Cheers Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 6 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 6 April , 2005 The second piece said that the Prussians were forced back to Favreuil but only temporarily. if I got it wrong I apologise. I <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Never any need to apologise Garth. It's a very unheard of battle in comparison to others, as is the war in general. The Germans (it wasn't only the Prussians involved) were actually forced out of Favreuil by the Marines of the Naval Division, under Payen, early on in the battle . Although there were several counter-attacks on Favreuil during the afternoon, the situation was hopeless and the Germans withdrew completely during the night of 3rd January. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 6 April , 2005 Share Posted 6 April , 2005 Now the next question - There used to be an ossuaire containing the remains of the fallen in the vicinity. Does that still exist? Cheers, Dave. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Dave - if so, I don't know where it could be. There isn't anything in Bapaume communal cemetery, as I have spent some time in there looking for ANZAC graves and speaking French, always give the local stones a scan as well. I also have never heard of anything in the local villages: it would normally be signposted, I would have thought? Perhaps it was lost in WW1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobpike Posted 6 April , 2005 Share Posted 6 April , 2005 The statue of General Faidherbe in Bapaume is rather good, I think, looking rather like a Confederate general. It also has quite a few shrapnel holes in it, I presume from the Great War? There is also another monument to Faidherbe on a rise just off the D929 Albert-Amiens road at Pont-Noyelles (also marked on Michelin) which was (another?) successful French battle? Perhaps our learned friends can elucidate more, please? Also as an after-thought a photo of the Bapaume monument may be tricky, if I recall it is surrounded closely by trees & always looks very gloomy! I don't suppose it also marks the ossuary Dave refers to, does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred van Woerkom Posted 6 April , 2005 Share Posted 6 April , 2005 General Faidherbe. I think the statue was moved a couple of yards a few years ago. All the best, Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 6 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 6 April , 2005 is also another monument to Faidherbe on a rise just off the D929 Albert-Amiens road at Pont-Noyelles (also marked on Michelin) which was (another?) successful French battle? Pont-Noyelles was a battle that took place on 23rd December 1870 and again featured Faidherbe's generalship. His opponant this time was Manteuffel in command of VIII Corps (15th and 16th Divisions in the case of this particular battle). It took part in bitterly cold weather which affected many of the combatants and the result was indecisive. Basically, it was a "draw"!. The French withdrew from the battle on the afternoon of 24th December. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 6 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 6 April , 2005 it would normally be signposted, I would have thought? Perhaps it was lost in WW1? I was also thinking that it may have been lost in WW1 ,Paul. However, I feared that this was the fate of the monument too, but happily I've been proven wrong here. As for the signposting, not for the 1870-71 war. Some are,such as those at Bazeilles and Gravelotte, but these are the "impressive" ones. I've come across many others that sometimes seem to have been simply "forgotten" (one , in the suburbs of Metz, literally took me 2 whole days to find in one of the "dodgier" parts of the town! They also don't seem to be signposted until you are literally on top of them. I think Bob (above) might have hit the nail on the head though. I do know that it was very near the monument (from a description from circa 1905). Perhaps the monument is actually on top of the ossuary? Several other monuments are. You don't happen to know the inscription on the monument do you? Thanks again for all the answers, Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 6 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 6 April , 2005 Also as an after-thought a photo of the Bapaume monument may be tricky, if I recall it is surrounded closely by trees & always looks very gloomy! I don't suppose it also marks the ossuary Dave refers to, does it? Thanks for that, bob. I think (hope!) that it just might very well do! Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobpike Posted 7 April , 2005 Share Posted 7 April , 2005 Fascinating thread, thank you. I shall be in the area next week, I'll try & take a look, Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 7 April , 2005 Share Posted 7 April , 2005 Indeed, an interesting thread and may well prompt a little diversion when I am next in the area. The overlaying of the various conflicts over many centuries in both Belgium and France is fascinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 7 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 7 April , 2005 may well prompt a little diversion when I am next in the area. The overlaying of the various conflicts over many centuries in both Belgium and France is fascinating. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It is indeed and well worth it! About the best place to study the battlefields of WW1 and the Franco-German War is to be based at Verdun. You can visit the sites of about 7 1870 actions within a 40 min drive from Verdun, including my favourite battlefield in the world - Gravelotte - St.Privat. On this battlefield, it's so easy to take yourself back in time to August 1870 and contains a museum, a couple of German cemeteries and Franco-German ossuaries, multiple French ossuaries (see my photos) and monuments galore. There is even evidence of fighting from WW2, as this was fought over again in 1944. Dave. Photo.1 Backing on to Moscow and St.Huberts Farms, looking over towards the Pont de Jour (a real killing ground!) - White crosses are French Ossuaries, monument is a German one to several regiments listing the names of the "fallen heros"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 7 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 7 April , 2005 Photo 2. Another shot towards the Pont de Jour showing a cluster of Ossuaries. Many others dot the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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