1914 and 14-15 Stars

[KizmeRD]

Could a man who was eligible for a 1914 Star forgo it it favour of a 1914-15 Star, was that permitted?

Only I have come across an officer who had a peripheral role with the RND in 1914 (Brigade Staff, Ostend) and a far more significant involvement in Gallipoli.

MB

 

 

Edited 8 March , 2023 by KizmeRD

[ForeignGong]

If he was there after 22 Nov 1914 he would get the 14-15 Star

[KizmeRD]

59 minutes ago, ForeignGong said:

If he was there after 22 Nov 1914 he would get the 14-15 Star

No, he was there with the Royal Marines (prior to the Siege of Antwerp), attached to Brigadier-General Aston’s staff. They landed at Ostend on the 27th August, but following his General’s incapacitation, I think he re-embarked back to England on 31st, after which Brigadier-General Paris took command of the RND.

According to the Admiralty 1914 Star Medal Roll, his medal was returned to Mint March 1934  (unclaimed).

MB

 

[PhilB]

Why would he want to forego the 14 star which covers all that the 14/15 star does and more?

[Rayessex]

Outside the range of the German guns perhaps?

[KizmeRD]

24 minutes ago, PhilB said:

Why would he want to forego the 14 star which covers all that the 14/15 star does and more?

The question is why wasn’t he issued it? - and I’m simply speculating that, being an honourable chap, perhaps 4 days in Belgium didn’t sit right with him (in comparison with the more intensive efforts of the rump of the RND).
During Gallipoli he was CO of the seaplane carrier ARK ROYAL, and went on to eventually become an Air Marshall of the Royal Air Force (Sir Robert Clark-Hall), having gained his Royal Aero Club pilots certificate number 127 in 1911 whilst still a naval officer.

4 minutes ago, Rayessex said:

Outside the range of the German guns perhaps?

I’m not implying that he was entitled to the clasp to the medal - but his name is on the medal roll, so we can assume that the entitlement to the 1914 Star existed (even though it was never claimed).

MB

 

[TullochArd]

4 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

According to the Admiralty 1914 Star Medal Roll, his medal was returned to Mint March 1934  (unclaimed).

If his first entitlement was the 14 Star he would have had no entitlement to the 14/15 Star.  

I believe officers had to claim medals and these were not issued automatically unlike ORs. 

Was his BWM/BWM also recorded as unclaimed?

I read Brigadier General Aston but was invalided home on 21 September 1914, three weeks after his appointment to divisional command. He held no further commands in the field.  He too is a 14 Star recipient.  Am I right in saying both these personnel are of the rather rare RN 14 Star and Clasp group?

Edited 8 March , 2023 by TullochArd

[Rayessex]

Yes, Was getting confused between 14 Star and clasp. However there were exceptions, One being the exclusion of anyone who visited a theatre of war on an inspection or as a passenger.

 

[KizmeRD]

 

8 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

Was his BWM/BWM also recorded as unclaimed?

BWM & Victory Medal were claimed, also awarded KBE, CMG and a DSO.

5 minutes ago, Rayessex said:

Yes, Was getting confused between 14 Star and clasp. However there were exceptions, One being the exclusion of anyone who visited a theatre of war on an inspection or as a passenger.

Don’t worry, I’m a bit confused still too. But he wasn’t a passenger or on an inspection tour. He was Acting Brigade Major on the staff of the General Officer Commanding in the field (albeit not for very long). I believe that he may have been dispatched back to London in order to brief Winston and the Admiralty, and he didn’t return to Belgium after Gen. Paris took charge.

MB

[horatio2]

13 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

He was Acting Brigade Major on the staff of the General Officer Commanding in the field (albeit not for very long). I believe that he may have been dispatched back to London in order to brief Winston and the Admiralty, and he didn’t return to Belgium after Gen. Paris took charge.

Since the GOC and his entire RM Bde returned to UK on 31 August/1 September I can see no reason why Gen ASTON could not have briefed Winston in person. I can find no evidence that CLARK-HALL was given this task.

13 hours ago, TullochArd said:

I read Brigadier General Aston but was invalided home on 21 September 1914, three weeks after his appointment to divisional command.

From early September, the RM Bde was then in UK for three weeks, its RMA Battalion was removed and replaced by a newly-formed RMLI  Deal Battalion. During this period there was no GOC RND -  only a skeleton divisional staff. Brig Gen ASTON's re-shaped RM Bde was based at Walmer from 12 September.

His RM Bde having re-embarked for France on 19 September, dis-embarking at Dunkirk on the next morning, Gen ASTON was placed on the sick list on 25 September (NOT at Ostend in late August as suggested earlier) He was immediately invalided home and Colonel PARIS (Temporary Brig Gen) was apppointed in as GOC RM Bde in his place. PARIS was not promoted to Major General and appointed GOC RND until the two RN Bdes of the RND arrived in Belgium on  5/6 October. Gen PARIS was, therefore, the first GOC RND.

Continuing the 1914 Star conumdrum, it is of interest that Brig Gen ASTON RMA appears on the 1914 Star Roll as qualifying for the 1914 Star (no Clasp) for service at Ostend and Dunkirk in the rank of Colonel Commandant RMA. He is the first name on the Roll's RMA list. Similarly. his Brigade Major, SKETCHLEY. appears on the Portsmouth list.

 

Edited 9 March , 2023 by horatio2

[horatio2]

13 hours ago, TullochArd said:

Am I right in saying both these personnel are of the rather rare RN 14 Star and Clasp group?

It depends what you mean by "rather rare". The Admiralty issued some 11,500 Stars and more than 5,000 Claps.

[horatio2]

17 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

According to the Admiralty 1914 Star Medal Roll, his medal was returned to Mint March 1934  (unclaimed).

Fevyer and Wilson note: "They were returned [to the Mint in March 1934]for the following reasons. They or their next-of-kin had not claimed their medals, The medals were returned because they could not be found. They had deserted ('Ran') and their entitlement to the medals was forfeited." 429 medals are shown a s returned to the Mint on that date.

Edited 9 March , 2023 by horatio2

[KizmeRD]

Thank you for the clarifications h2  - it’s very much appreciated. I can only conclude that possibly  H-C didn’t think that the episode was worthy of a medal and so chose not to claim it. 

I think TullochArd’s point might have been that there were not so many regular RN Officers amongst the names of the 11,000 odd officers and OR’s eligible for the 1914 Star on the Admiralty list (those that were were mostly RNAS) - plenty more Royal Marines and RNVR/RND officers in comparison.

MB

[horatio2]

Quite so. Just taking officers,the RNR + RNVR 1914 Stars (c.185) compared with the RN (c.120), RMLI + RMA (c.55) and RNAS (50).

[michaeldr]

There is an autobiography https://smithsbookshop.co.nz/p/world-military-history-air-marshal-sir-robert-clark-hall which may (?) offer an explanation

[Photo credit - Sir Robert Clark-Hall, Air Force Museum of New Zealand (MUS9405020)]
 

Edited 9 March , 2023 by michaeldr
add photo credit

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All,

Isn't that the ribbon of the 14 respectively 15 Star on Sir Robert's RAF tunic?

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[TullochArd]

On 09/03/2023 at 09:50, horatio2 said:

It depends what you mean by "rather rare". The Admiralty issued some 11,500 Stars and more than 5,000 Claps.

"Rather rare" in RN terms in that to qualify for the clasp the recipient had to be "within range of enemy mobile artillery in France or Belgium during the period between 5 August and 22 November 1914" which is easily defined in Army terms but slightly more complex in RN terms:  

Admiralty WO 6 (19 Jan 1919?) sheds specific light on the 14 Star: "2. The award is to the Officers and men of the R.N., R.M., R.N.A.S., R.N.R., and R.N.V.R. who actually served in France or Belgium between the 5th August and midnight 22nd/ 23rd November. The Star is not granted to any Officer or man employed on special or temporary shore service but not definitely appointed to a shore Unit." and "3. Provided the claims are approved by the Admiralty, Officers and men of the following Naval Units are entitled to the Star:- Naval Transport Staffs ashore. Armoured Trains. Naval Mission with Belgian Army. Machine Gun Parties landed from H.M. Ships “Severn”, “Mersey”, and “Hunter”. R.N. Hospital, Dunkirk. R.N.A.S., Dunkirk. R.N.A.S., No. 1 and No. 3 Wings. R.N.A.S., Armoured Cars. R.M. Brigade, Ostend. R.N. Division, Antwerp."

"R.M. Brigade, Ostend." therefore 1914 Star.

Fleet Order 4036 dated 17 Dec 1919 sheds specific light on the Clasp: "3. Provided the claims are approved by the Admiralty, the clasp will be issued to Officers and men of the Royal Navy, Royal Marines, Royal Naval Reserve and Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve who were actually present on duty within range of the enemy’s mobile artillery between the dates specified above." and  "6. The following units do not qualify for the clasp:- (a) Transport Staffs. (b) R.N. Hospital, Dunkirk. (c) R.M. Brigade, Ostend. (d) R.N.A.S., Dunkirk. (e) R.N. Division, detachments at Dunkirk. R.N. Division, Divisional Engineers. R.N. Division, Divisional Train."

"R.M. Brigade, Ostend." therefore no Clasp

I'll step ashore at this point and leave you to it!

Edited 10 March , 2023 by TullochArd

[horatio2]

On 09/03/2023 at 10:11, KizmeRD said:

I can only conclude that possibly  H-C didn’t think that the episode was worthy of a medal and so chose not to claim it. 

Some morebackground to the C-H 1914 Star conundrum:-

We shall probably never know what lay behind CLARK-HALL’s unusual relationship to his 1914Star.

However, as we have seen, C-H was not the only RM Bde staff officer to have his Star returned in1934. On the same list is Assistant Paymaster Thomas Archibald BATCHELOR RN, who was loaned from HMS VENERABLE to serve as the ‘Compensation Officer’ to GOC RM Bde (Bde Supply Base Ostend). It is probable that he returned to VENERABLE in early September after the Ostend operation.

Following the C-H career path, BATCHELOR in November 1915 also transferred into the RNAS (where he invented the Batchelor Bombing Mirror) and from there into the RAF where, in 1918, he commanded 207 Squadron (HP heavy bombers) as Major DFC  AFC.

The RN Officers’ Medal Roll does credit BATCHELOR with the 1914 Star (unlike the C-H 1914-15 Star) but it does not record its issue and, incorrectly, states that his Victory and BW Medals (in the rank of Flight Commander RNAS) were issued to Mrs Ina Batchelor by the War Office (should have been Air Ministry). It seems that, like C-H, he never claimed his 1914 Star. This may be explained by BATCHELOR’s death in an aircraft accident in April 1919 only a couple of months after 1914 Star applications opened.

However, both officers could have claimed the 1914 Star Riband when it was issued from January 1918. It is possible that this information was not widely promulgated (if at all) by the RAF which had no service interest but eligibility is noted on BATCHELOR’s AIR 76 RAF record.

Edited 10 March , 2023 by horatio2