Help with identification of early WW1uniform badge and photograph

[Sam55]

I am piecing together my Great Uncle Fred's war history and recently two intriguing items turned up in a cousin's attic.  The first item is a silver (hallmarked) uniform badge which appears in an early photograph of our great uncle.  We have not been able to identify his uniform in this photo as he is not wearing a cap, and the buttons are a mystery to us.  It could be a pre-war reservist uniform as he appears quite young in the photo.  Sorry the image is upside down and I can't change it! 

The second item is an early photograph of Fred in Royal Artillery uniform.  This must have been taken early in the war as he is not displaying any rank but seems to have signaller slides on is epaulets.  He was a signaller and  a Lance Bombardier when he embarked for France in September 1916. 

 

 

 

 

[GWF1967]

31 minutes ago, Sam55 said:

 The first item is a silver (hallmarked) uniform badge which appears in an early photograph of our great uncle.  -  Sorry the image is upside down and I can't change it! 

I think the first item is a watch fob. 

[Gunner 87]

Hi Sam55. If you are able to let us know your Great Uncle's name, year of birth and where he lived his military record could still be held which, in turn, would identify his regiment. 

[Tawhiri]

From a previous thread in August 2020, which will hopefully prevent a lot of going back over the same ground:

Quote

My Great Uncle's name was Frederick C. Suffling and his Home Counties (Kent) Heavy Battery service number was  317468.  He arrived in France with this number and given: 697500 on arrival in the 55 DAC.  His original service number was 892.  His service file was burnt in the Blitz but I followed the fortunes of another soldier with the adjacent 55 DAC number of 697499.  This soldier enlisted in the 3/1st Kent Heavy Battery at Faversham in November 1915 and was in training in Winchester at the same time as Fred in 1916.  His original service number was 852 and his service number on arrival in France was 317437.  He could have travelled with Fred because he arrived in the DAC on 2nd of September and was then posted to 277th Brigade.  Fred was posted to 275th Brigade.They were both signaller/gunners.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/283959-31-kent-rga-1916/

Edited 7 March , 2023 by Tawhiri

[FROGSMILE]

The soldier seated at left is Royal Artillery, the soldier standing at right is Norfolk Regiment.  I agree that the metal artefact is a pocket watch fob.  These were occasionally viewed by their possessors as good luck charms and so retained into later life as personally meaningful souvenirs of wartime service.

Edited 7 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

1 hour ago, GWF1967 said:

I think the first item is a watch fob. 

Most certainly.  I'd offer there is strong Scottish symbolism present ........ St Andrew's Cross, Lion Rampant, Lion on Crown, armorial helmet and what appears to be police dicing.  All the latter, less the dicing, feature on the Scottish Coat-of-Arms although dicing is present on many other Scottish Coat-of-Arms.

I can only make out ???? SAA.  What are the other letters Sam55?

Edited 7 March , 2023 by TullochArd

[Sam55]

Thank you all, for your responses they are a revelation. 

The other soldier being from the Norfolk Regiment makes sense as another family member was in this Regiment.  I will need to check old photos to see whether the standing soldier is him.

37 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

Most certainly.  I'd offer there is strong Scottish symbolism present ........ St Andrew's Cross, Lion Rampant, Lion on Crown, armorial helmet and what appears to be police dicing.  All the latter, less the dicing, feature on the Scottish Coat-of-Arms although dicing is present on many other Scottish Coat-of-Arms.

I can only make out ???? SAA.  What are the other letters Sam55?

Thank you, TullochArd: The other letters appear to be either SI (or 1ST) and PE.  Could SAA be Small Arms Ammunition?  I thought that this might be some sort of proficiency badge. I don't actually have the badge - only a photo sent by a cousin, which is easier to read if you make it black and white.

 

Thank you GWF1967 and Frogsmile

 I don't know much about pocket watch fobs.  Would the badge be attached to the watch in some way?  Have attached an enlargement of the badge from Fred's early photo. You can see the reverse with the hallmark in the photo.  Any ideas about the uniform would also be welcomed.

[FROGSMILE]

On 07/03/2023 at 09:47, Sam55 said:

Thank you all, for your responses they are a revelation. 

The other soldier being from the Norfolk Regiment makes sense as another family member was in this Regiment.  I will need to check old photos to see whether the standing soldier is him.

Thank you, TullochArd: The other letters appear to be either SI (or 1ST) and PE.  Could SAA be Small Arms Ammunition?  I thought that this might be some sort of proficiency badge. I don't actually have the badge - only a photo sent by a cousin, which is easier to read if you make it black and white.

 

Thank you GWF1967 and Frogsmile

 I don't know much about pocket watch fobs.  Would the badge be attached to the watch in some way?  Have attached an enlargement of the badge from Fred's early photo. You can see the reverse with the hallmark in the photo.  Any ideas about the uniform would also be welcomed.

The fob served two purposes and was generally attached to the watches chain.  It was primarily a decorative pendant hanging outside the pocket, but also something to grasp with your finger tips when fishing in your pocket for the watch.  There was commonly also a T-bar for securing through a button hole.  In the watch shown below an old coin has been fitted as a fob.

The jacket is of typical type issued universally to soldiers at that time.  Described as Service Dress (SD) it was introduced in 1902 having evolved from the serge jackets issued for colder weather in the 2nd Boer War.  It’s colour was ‘drab’ the official term for a brownish khaki.

 

Edited 8 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Sam55]

26 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The fob served two purposes and was generally attached to the watches chain.  It was primarily a decorative pendant but also something to grasp with your finger tips when fishing in your pocket for the watch.  There was commonly also a T-bar for securing through a button hole.  In the watch below an old coin has been fitted as a fob.  

Thanks, that really helpful.  I guess it also means that the badge itself may not be anything to do with his service, it may just be something that he valued - a gift from his girlfriend perhaps.

The jacket is of typical type issued universally to soldiers at that time.  Described as Service Dress (SD) it was introduced in 1902 having evolved from the serge jackets issued for colder weather in the 2nd Boer War.  It’s colour was ‘drab’ the official term for a brownish khaki.

Thank you Frogsmile.  When you say "at that time" could it be early in WW1 or a pre-war territorial unit?  I noticed some insignia on the epaulet - could this provide some information about his unit?   I have a good idea of what he was doing from April 1916.  But 1915 is still a mystery.   If he was a Lance Bombardier in early 1916, he must have been in the army for some time before he went to France in September.

By the way the Norfolk Regiment was spot on.  The standing soldier is his brother.  The "studio" looks too makeshift to be in a town.  Perhaps it was on an army training base.  It look very well used and muddy in places. 

Thanks again, Sam55

 

[FROGSMILE]

23 hours ago, Sam55 said:

 

Yes the fob seems to have meant something to him, or he probably wouldn’t have kept it for so long.  It has a Scottish focus and my guess is it reminded him of home (that he was fighting for) and perhaps saw it as bringing him luck.

When I said ‘at that time’, I meant that the SD uniform became synonymous with WW1 soldiers, but it was actually the standard field uniform from 1902 until 1937.

Territorials received it as general issue from 1908, when they were first established.  The insignia on his shoulder strap is made of brass and appears to be multi tier, which was a feature of Territorial units.  RFA, RGA and RHA all commonly had three tiers early in the war.  A ‘T ‘for Territorial at the top, the three letters indicating which part of the artillery (e.g. RFA) and finally the County, or Region.

 It’s possible that he was in the Territorials prewar, but you would need to research that and the vast majority of service records were destroyed by WW2 bombing of the storage facility in London where they were kept.

Bombardier was the rank with one stripe at that time, and Corporal with two stripes.  There were also Acting Bombardiers and Acting Corporals, who wore the stripes but did not receive extra pay.  Lance Bombardier was formally introduced in a reform of Artillery ranks soon after WW1 ended.

Edited 8 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Sam55]

Thank you for the information about the uniform and insignia.   I have made considerable progress during the past 24 hours.

Most of Fred's brother's file has fortunately survived the Blitz and that has helped me to date the photograph - probably late 1915 just before the brother embarked.  After that time it would have been difficult for them to be in the same place.   

I have very few army documents relating to Fred as his file was destroyed.  The documents I have found show his rank as Bdr and L/Bdr.  The gazettal notice of his gallantry medal in 1919 shows him as Lance Bombardier.  In his1918 wedding photo he has 3 stripes - perhaps that was a temporary rank. 

I will now weave all of this information into his story.

Sam55

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Sam55 said:

Thank you for the information about the uniform and insignia.   I have made considerable progress during the past 24 hours.

Most of Fred's brother's file has fortunately survived the Blitz and that has helped me to date the photograph - probably late 1915 just before the brother embarked.  After that time it would have been difficult for them to be in the same place.   

I have very few army documents relating to Fred as his file was destroyed.  The documents I have found show his rank as Bdr and L/Bdr.  The gazettal notice of his gallantry medal in 1919 shows him as Lance Bombardier.  In his1918 wedding photo he has 3 stripes - perhaps that was a temporary rank. 

I will now weave all of this information into his story.

Sam55

Hello Sam, I’m glad to help.  The Lance Bombardier rank was indeed formally introduced at the end of the war.  Corporal was abolished and Bombardier elevated to replace it.  Lance Bombardier then replaced the previous Acting Bombardier.  The end result then was two stripes equalled Bombardier and one stripe Lance Bombardier, but it’s important to keep in mind that’s not how it was during the actual war itself 1914-1918.

The wedding photo probably shows him as either, Acting Sergeant (usually paid), or Lance Sergeant (usually unpaid).  These steps in rank can be complicated to understand, even for seasoned researchers.

Edited 8 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE