George William Smith S/20993 Rifle Brigade.

[Christopher Smith]

Hi

Can anyone identify my relative’s rank and uniform please ?. I do not know his name or number but could be George William Smith , my grandfather’s older brother or his father George William Smith also. Rifleman The Rifle Brigade S/20993

Also any other information about the regiment’s involvement in WW1?.

[Allan1892]

George William Smith, S/20993 Rifle Brigade, 'B' Company of the 2nd Battalion, enlisted at Finsbury, Middlesex. He died of wounds on the 14 June 1917 whilst back in the UK. The CWGC web site shows that he was 36 years of age and the son of the son of George Marsh Smith, of 28, Devonshire St., Islington, London and the husband of Eliza Smith, of 73, Rahere St., St. Luke's, London. He is buried in St. Pancras Cemetery.

[Allan1892]

# S/20993 Medal Index Card does not have a date of when he entered a Theatre of War, this means that he didn't enter a 'ToW' until 1 January 1916 or later.

His entry in the Medal Rolls shows that he was in the 1st Battalion before transferring into the 2nd Battalion.

(images courtesy of Ancestry)

[Allan1892]

He has 2 'pips' on each shoulder indicating the rank of a Lieutenant -- not # S/20993 who was a Private.

Edited 4 March , 2023 by Allan1892

[Christopher Smith]

Hi

I have some information about my Great great grandfather George William Smith,

Service Number S/20993 Rifleman 2nd Brigade, The Rifle Battalion.Died 14 June 1917 Age 36 of wounds at home. Buried at St Pancras Cemetery. Enlisted Finsbury, Middlesex.

I know he was shipped home to a hospital in Scotland and died there before being transferred my train to London for burial

Can anyone help me with more information?.. Date he enlisted ? what action the  2nd Battalion was involved in when he was wounded, area of France/ Belgium ?. How he would have been shipped home?.. Photos of the regiment ?.

Any other information?.

I have just joined this site today and guidance/ advice would be appreciated.

Much Thanks 

Chris

I do have some photos of his grave which I visited 2 years ago and  interactive records of his Regiment in Winchester Cathedral.

 

[Michelle Young]

There’s no shoulder titles and the buttons aren’t regimental. Is the ribbon that of the MC? 

[Michelle Young]

Duplicate threads merged. 

[Allan1892]

The cause of death as shown on a dependant's pension card (image courtesy of the Western Front Association) was 'Gastritis, aggravated by active service' 

[Michelle Young]

21 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

He has 2 'pips' on each shoulder indicating the rank of a Lieutenant -- not # S/20993 who was a Private.

So this photo cannot be who the OP thinks then. 

[Allan1892]

3 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

So this photo cannot be who the OP thinks then. 

Agreed, that's why I added 'not # S/20993 who was a Private'

[Michelle Young]

Indeed, the photo suggests post Great War to me. 

[Allan1892]

His entry in the Soldiers' Effects database shows that he died on the 14th June 1917 at BANGOR -- unfortunately it doesn't say if it was Bangor in North Wales or Bangor in Ireland. (image courtesy of Ancestry)

[Christopher Smith]

Thanks for responses.

I have just joined this site today and am an amateur so am not sure about the correct terms and abbreviations. 

This must not be my Great Great Grandfather George William Smith in the photo then who Allan has kindly pointed out was a Private/ Rifleman.

I do have the CWGC site information and have visited his grave which was amazing as I did not know it existed.

Does the ribbon of the MC” mean ?.. poss Military Cross?.

I have no information about the gentleman in the photo, other than he is a relative.

Papers and photos were found in a biscuit tin buried under an old War shelter some years ago in my Grandfather’s garden.

I have been trying to trace things by myself but saw the site and decided to contact people with better knowledge than myself.

Could the gentleman in the new photo ( attached) be the same gentleman but younger ?. I mean the same uniform and regiment?.

Is there any clues to his regiment?.

Any further help/ guidance would be appreciated ?. The right questions I should be asking or places I should be looking?.

Much Thanks

Chris

[Christopher Smith]

Thank you so much for your time and expertise. 

You have already furthered my knowledge about George William Smith’ s death and place of death in a very short time 🙏.

Duplicate threads merged means what ??

[RaySearching]

1 hour ago, Christopher Smith said:

I know he was shipped home to a hospital in Scotland and died there before being transferred my train to London for burial

The soldiers effects record posted by Allan1892 refers to Bangour village hospital located in West Lothian Scotland which was requisitioned by the war office during the Great War

Now closed

Which in no way helps to identify the soldier in the initial post

40 minutes ago, Christopher Smith said:

 

Duplicate threads merged means what ??

It means that you have opened two threads on the same subject they have now been merged to prevent the duplication of replys

 

Ray

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Christopher Smith said:

Thanks for responses.

I have just joined this site today and am an amateur so am not sure about the correct terms and abbreviations. 

This must not be my Great Great Grandfather George William Smith in the photo then who Allan has kindly pointed out was a Private/ Rifleman.

I do have the CWGC site information and have visited his grave which was amazing as I did not know it existed.

Does the ribbon of the MC” mean ?.. poss Military Cross?.

I have no information about the gentleman in the photo, other than he is a relative.

Papers and photos were found in a biscuit tin buried under an old War shelter some years ago in my Grandfather’s garden.

I have been trying to trace things by myself but saw the site and decided to contact people with better knowledge than myself.

Could the gentleman in the new photo ( attached) be the same gentleman but younger ?. I mean the same uniform and regiment?.

Is there any clues to his regiment?.

Any further help/ guidance would be appreciated ?. The right questions I should be asking or places I should be looking?.

Much Thanks

Chris

This photo shows a young Gunner of the Royal Artillery circa 1925-1935 (the dress of the young civilian suggests 1930s).  Although similar at first glance to the dress of WW1, the white lanyard (cords) was transferred to the right shoulder from the left in the early 1920s and collar badges were adopted by all ranks at the same time.

The first photo shows a subaltern officer (full lieutenant in this case) in khaki drill service dress, also probably late 1930s and in a hot climate such as Egypt, elsewhere in North Africa, or India.  I don’t think it’s the same man as the gunner but a side-by-side comparison would help to be sure. 

Edited 4 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Christopher Smith]

Thanks for your help and info.

Would this photo be of the same regiment ?

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Christopher Smith said:

Thanks for your help and info.

Would this photo be of the same regiment ?

No that is Machine Gun Corps.  Formed in 1915, disbanded in 1922.

Edited 4 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

2 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

Is the ribbon that of the MC? 

I don't think so. In monochrome, that would be white-darker-white.

Is it the DCM? Red-Very dark blue- red in real life, could show as dark-paler-darker, depending on the type of film.

The Lieutenant in the top photo (with the pale uniform, shoulder pips and medal ribbon) could well be the same man who is the civilian sitting down  next to the Royal Artillery man. Taken a few years apart -one as an older lieutenant and one as a younger civilian.

Edited 4 March , 2023 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

I don't think so. Is it the DCM?

The Lieutenant in the top photo (with the pale uniform, shoulder pips and medal ribbon) could well be the same man who is the civilian sitting down  next to the Royal Artillery man. Taken a few years apart -one as an older lieutenant and one as a younger civilian.

Yes I think you’re right, great spot Dai.

[stiletto_33853]

George William Smith, S/20993 enlisted in December 1915.

As to if he was sent to reserve and mobilised at a later date unknown, some of the soldiers in the grouping did go to reserve, others did not.

Overseas, looking at his nearest number on my records September to November 1916. Once again, with all the caveats as no record survives, S/20991 Richard Rogers enlisted 11/12/1915, sent to reserve, mobilised 7/6/1916, overseas 12/9/16, UK with frostbite 21/4/17, toes amputated and discharged as no longer fit 7/2/18, Died 27/4/18.

Others around that number went overseas in November 1916.

2nd Rifle Brigade War Diary you can download for free on The National Archives site after registering, its number is WO95/1731 although it will be difficult to locate a specific time he left the battalion.

I will see if I can dig out anymore for you.

 

Andy

Edited 4 March , 2023 by stiletto_33853

[PRC]

37 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

The Lieutenant in the top photo (with the pale uniform, shoulder pips and medal ribbon) could well be the same man who is the civilian sitting down  next to the Royal Artillery man. Taken a few years apart -one as an older lieutenant and one as a younger civilian.

Something like this Dai?

3 hours ago, Allan1892 said:

His entry in the Medal Rolls shows that he was in the 1st Battalion before transferring into the 2nd Battalion.

@Christopher Smith

The 1st Battalion landed in France in August 1914, while the 2nd Battalion had to return from India before going on to France in November 1914. As George William Smith didn't arrive in a Theatre of War until on or after the 1st January 1916 he must have done his training in the UK with another unit - which may have been with a home service only Battalion of the Rifle Brigade, although that is not guaranteed. By that stage of the war men went where they were needed and many a replacement draft arriving in France would find themselves rebadged and posted elsewhere.

I see from his entry in the register of soldiers effects that he qualified for a War Gratuity of £3 10 s. As the miniumum amount was I believe £3 for up to 12 months service, hopefully the clever people on the forum can calculate the rough four week period during which he was mobilised.

Can I suggest you rename this thread to reflect the specific family member you are interested in. If you go back to your first post and click on the three side by side dots in the top right corner it will pop up with various options including "Edit".  By using that option in your first post you can also edit the thread title as well.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[6RRF]

10 minutes ago, PRC said:

Something like this Dai?

@Christopher Smith

 

Cheers,
Peter

 

The ears and the eyes certainly look like it

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

10 minutes ago, PRC said:

Something like this Dai?

Indeed.

The face, eyes and hair are remarkably similar, with his ears matching perfectly, and the same really horizontal mouth.

[Christopher Smith]

Hi Peter

I have done as you suggested but I am only having “report “or “share” come up when I press the three inline dots.

Regards

Chris