Why did my 2 x Great Grandfather serve in the Army when he was in the Navy since childhood?

[lmcfaull]

I am researching my husbands family history.  His Great Grandfather - Robert Leslie McFaull died on the 12/09/1915.  He was G/10533- a private in the Middlesex Regiment.  This week we discovered that we had the wrong birth records for Robert for many years  (same Father but the one we had died aged 11 months!) Our Robert was actually born as Robert McFarlane McFaulds.  Both his parents died when he was young and he spent some of his childhood in a Glasgow children's home and then the workhouse - joining the navy aged 16!! On his marriage certificate, his occupation was listed as "Sailor".  So why did he serve in the army please and not the navy in WW1.  The family would love to know.  Many Thanks

[keithmroberts]

Was he perhaps employed as a sailor in a civilian vessel? Have you checked to discover a naval record for him?

[lmcfaull]

Excuse my ignorance.  I am unsure about different records.  For years we have thought our ancestor was the wrong person so have only made this new discovery the last few days so am only just finding information.  Above is his records connected to Navy that i found on Ancestry and the children's home records say he joined Navy at 16.   

[horatio2]

He deserted ("Run") from HMS BULWARK in 1908.

He had previously served two sentences of cells for unrecorded offences in HMS ALBION and 60 days detention for breaking out of BULWARK..

Edited 3 March , 2023 by horatio2

[lmcfaull]

Oh no!!! Sorry excuse my ignorance but would he have been discharged from the Navy then?  On his marriage certificate he still states his profession as "Sailor" but  appreciate that this may not be in the Navy.  

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, lmcfaull said:

Oh no!!! Sorry excuse my ignorance but would he have been discharged from the Navy then?  On his marriage certificate he still states his profession as "Sailor" but  appreciate that this may not be in the Navy.  

Once he’d deserted he was effectively on the run and a wanted man.  The policy for both Royal Navy and Army absentees was similar and the names and descriptions of men were routinely handed to local police near their recorded place of origin/abode.

Patrolling policemen were then ordered as part of normal routine to watch out for said absentees.  Just like today the police had other priorities though and so pursuance was variable according to local circumstances.  Also with no street cctv or computerised documentation it was much harder to track men down.

Those who did return or were apprehended had commonly been persuaded to hand themselves in, or in some cases had been betrayed by onlookers who knew them.

Absentees from the Navy joining the Army and visa-versa was not uncommon and solved the problem of feeding and clothing themselves, not being a burden on their families, and also finding a new social and professional orbit in which to exist away from their sullied pasts and with lesser risk of retribution.

Edited 3 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[horatio2]

He deserted and was never recovered so, in a sense but not actually, he had discharged himself. If recovered from desertion he would have been charged and punished according to the Naval Discipline Act. I would have expected a prolonged period of detention, possibly imprisonment, at the comclusion of which the Admiralty would decide whether he should continue his 12-year engagement (of which he had served only four years) or be administratively discharged 'Services No Longer Required' (SNLR).

Edited 3 March , 2023 by horatio2

[lmcfaull]

So the detention previously mentioned by someone of 60 days from breaking out of BULWARK was not the desertion?  He tried a few times it seems and was caught twice?  and then finally deserted and was never found?  Sorry for all the questions but want to be sure of my facts before telling his family.  I think that may explain the change of name and the family confusion. His birth certificate was certainly Robert McFarlane McFaulds and his marriage after desertion was Robert McFaull and Leslie was added when joined the army. 

 

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, lmcfaull said:

So the detention previously mentioned by someone of 60 days from breaking out of BULWARK was not the desertion?  He tried a few times it seems and was caught twice?  and then finally deserted and was never found?  Sorry for all the questions but want to be sure of my facts before telling his family.  I think that may explain the change of name and the family confusion. His birth certificate was certainly Robert McFarlane McFaulds and his marriage after desertion was Robert McFaull and Leslie was added when joined the army. 

 

We don’t know what his earlier offences were as they were not recorded, but we’re not talking about a master criminal here, just breaches of petty discipline.  The term breaking out meant leaving the confines of the ship without permission.  It was a similar offence to break out of barracks.

Servicemen had no personal freedom once enlisted, nor usually any civilian clothes.  To leave ship or barracks required permission.  Someone unhappy or desperate to see a girlfriend might try to breakout but with full intention of returning, taking punishment and then carrying on.

It’s the act of not returning that then leads to the recategorisation as ‘Run’ and therefore being an absentee.  In the Army the same situation is recorded as A.W.O.L. absent without leave.  If on active duty in the field it’s straightforward ‘desertion’.

NB.  It was common for an absentee to use an assumed name when enlisting with a new service.  In effect running away from his past and making apprehension less likely.

Edited 3 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[lmcfaull]

Thats really interesting thank you - the childrens home said he joined the Navy in November 1902 when he was 16 so assume that was in some sort of training until he started his service presumably on 24 April 1904 on his 18th birthday 

 

[lmcfaull]

He married his wife in Stepney London on the 25th May 1909.  I wonder how they met as he had lived in Glasgow prior to joining the Navy and if he deserted on the 9th August 1908 it was a very short courtship if they met after he left.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, lmcfaull said:

Thats really interesting thank you - the childrens home said he joined the Navy in November 1902 when he was 16 so assume that was in some sort of training until he started his service presumably on 24 April 1904 on his 18th birthday 

 

Joining the Royal Navy as a Boy entrant was by far the most common route during that period.  The minimum age for enlistment was in accordance with the statutory school leaving age.

The Boy service usually lasted around 2-years if I recall correctly with the first year in a shorebase training establishment (actually often a floating wooden hulk back then) as a Boy 2nd Class learning basic skills.  Then a further year on board a warship as a Boy 1st Class learning seamanship skills.

It was only on completion of that second period that a rating was elevated to adult seaman.   As a result of the policy the average age of a warship’s crew in 1914 was early 20s.

NB.  Even officers quite commonly began as young boys training as Midshipmen. 

 

 

Edited 3 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[lmcfaull]

What smart young men and thank you for sharing your knowledge.  It is so fascinating.  I will try and find out now what happened to him after he deserted and how he met his wife and ended up in London.

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, lmcfaull said:

What smart young men and thank you for sharing your knowledge.  It is so fascinating.  I will try and find out now what happened to him after he deserted and how he met his wife and ended up in London.

My knowledge is only limited and based largely on a great uncle’s Service as a boy Seaman in 1914.  The absolute expert on Royal Navy matters is @horatio2who can give far greater detail than I.

It’s a sad fact that many Boys went down with their ships both in WW1 and WW2, with terrible incidents such as HMS Crecy, Hogue and Aboukir (WW1) and HMS Royal Oak (WW2) as just two tragic examples among many.

Edited 3 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

So is he the 25 year old Mercantile Marine Seaman Robert McFaull, born Govan, Glasgow, who was recorded as the married head of the household at 11, Harrow Lane, Poplar, on the 1911 Census of England & Wales? He, wife Norah and daughter Norah live in one room - presumably all other facilities were communal.

Cheers,
Peter

[lmcfaull]

Not seen this census I don't think but does sound right 

 

[RaySearching]

32 minutes ago, PRC said:

So is he the 25 year old Mercantile Marine Seaman Robert McFaull, born Govan, Glasgow, who was recorded as the married head of the household at 11, Harrow Lane, Poplar, on the 1911 Census of England & Wales? He, wife Norah and daughter Norah live in one room - presumably all other facilities were communal.

Cheers,
Peter

Thats the man Peter 

Corresponds with his army service records and his pension ledger cards

It appears that he deserted the Royal Navy and joined the mercantile marine before being employed as a dock labourer  prior to enlisting in the army 

It may be possible to find records regarding his time in the merchant navy  "if he had not joined the merchant navy under an alias" 

Ray

[lmcfaull]

Finding the records of his time in the merchant navy would be amazing.  Anyone know where I could start to look for these please?  Also if he deserted the BULWARK on the 9th August 1908, does anyone know where in the country the boat would have been on that date please?  Still trying to work out how and where he met Norah who was from Wales.

[Allan1892]

@lmcfaull -- are you aware that his army attestation papers have survived and can be found on Find My Past and Ancestry? Links below:-

British Army Service Records 1914-1920 Image | findmypast.co.uk

Ancestry.co.uk - UK, British Army World War I Service Records, 1914-1920

[lmcfaull]

Thank you - I will look but I did pay for his army records many years ago so think I have most of them.  

[PRC]

9 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

Corresponds with his army service records

Hopefully also ties up with signature and handwriting from the 1911 Census sign off.

Image courtesy Genes Reunited.

Also are those other documents as McFaull or MacFaull?

CWGC have his webpage as MacFaull https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/102509/r-l-macfaull/

But of the attached documents:-
Grave Registration Report shows McFaull
Cemetery Register shows MacFaull
Headstone order shows MacFaull.

Looking further afield the GRO register of Armed Forces deaths shows a G/10533 Robert L. McFaull.
Medal Index Card is McFaull and there is nothing to indicate they were ever returned for the name to be corrected.

@lmcfaull  If nothing else something to be aware of when searching for other sources - some organisations file the "Mac's" and "Mc" together while others will have the "Mac's" then the "Mc's". It may be worth dropping the CWGC a line to see if they can give you the background to the surname spelling used. They will always take the line that the request of the contemporary next of kin \ family was paramount, but it could be that when they review the file an error slipped in many decades ago and has never been corrected. With all the name variations you have on the go, you hardly need another one

Cheers,
Peter

[lmcfaull]

Thank you Peter - that's really helpful.  I have a folder from  the Great War Family Research and does show variations in MacFaull and McFaull but actually does not have any copies of paperwork so peoples help has been amazing.  Yes I definitely don't need any name variations  He was born as Robert McFarland McFaulds so now suspect he changed his name because of running away from the navy.  He married as Robert McFaull so wonder how he did that when his birth certificate would not have shown that.  However he did lose a half brother at 11 months - could he have used his birth certificate? The plot thickens.   From the documentation above it does not seem he had added "Leslie" by then either - maybe it was added upon enlistment as testament to his son (who sadly died shortly after he enlisted). 

[PRC]

10 minutes ago, lmcfaull said:

He married as Robert McFaull so wonder how he did that when his birth certificate would not have shown that.  However he did lose a half brother at 11 months - could he have used his birth certificate?

If someone couldn't provide a birth certificate - many probably couldn't and I'm not even sure it was compulsory - they would have signed a declaration that the details were true, with the threat of criminal prosecution for lieing. It's so easy to forget that this was a time when there was little in the way of an admin trail to challenge such declarations. Alternatively you only have to look at the number of cases of bigamy reported in local newspapers in an age when divorce was not a practical option for the overwhelming majority to realise there was no system of checks in place.

Cheers,
Peter

[Keith_history_buff]

1 hour ago, RaySearching said:

It may be possible to find records regarding his time in the merchant navy  "if he had not joined the merchant navy under an alias" 

The Mercantile Marine records from 1913 to 1919 were destroyed in 1969. The subsequent set of records has survived and are on FindMyPast.

[PRC]

The National Archives have a couple of introductory guides to researching merchant seaman prior to the Great War . Start with this one https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/merchant-seamen-in-service-before-1914/

I've tended to assume it was unlikely you'd find anything when looking into this area for family research - the gist seems to be you probably have to know which ships he was serving on - even the National Archive describes it as a black hole. You know he was a merchant seaman (by default) at the time of his wedding in 1909 and when he completed the 1911 Census return to reflect the household at midnight on the 2nd April 1911. At some point between then and enlisting it seems he became a dock labourer, so the window of time when he was a merchant seaman may only be two or three years.

Just in case I also checked out the Royal Naval Reserve records but no obvious pre-war service there - possibly too much chance of running into the naval authorities.

Cheers,
Peter