WW1 German Water Bottle ?

[thedawnpatrol]

Hi

I have already shown this bottle on the 'Airmen Forum' as it has a strange twist in its tail.....the kind member on that page have confirmed that though i believe it to be German, it was in fact used and stamped up to an RFC Airman, J.Collins ........we have checked him out and he did exist.....

my question to you, is can anyone confirm this is a WW1 German water bottle, it certainly looks like one, but the straps vary on images i have seen on line ? 

[AOK4]

It does indeed look to be a German water bottle. I don't know about the marking "WD 14"? War Department 1914?

Perhaps a trial for the British army?

[Andrew Upton]

3 hours ago, thedawnpatrol said:

Hi

I have already shown this bottle on the 'Airmen Forum' as it has a strange twist in its tail.....the kind member on that page have confirmed that though i believe it to be German, it was in fact used and stamped up to an RFC Airman, J.Collins ........we have checked him out and he did exist.....

my question to you, is can anyone confirm this is a WW1 German water bottle, it certainly looks like one, but the straps vary on images i have seen on line ? 

 

 

 

TDP - when I first saw this on the Airmens forum my heart sank a little, but I said nothing. Now it's being mentioned again I feel more obligated to respond.

I'm certain the bottle itself is genuine, but not German military issue - probably another nation or a civilian model loosely copying the German style. What I am also certain is those stamped markings are not genuine to the period. They match the work of a very well known and prolific faker exactly, even down to the font of the stamping. Possibly their most favoured modus operandi is to take otherwise unremarkable items that they would struggle to sell and add stamped markings to add value, usually selling it as "unresearched" in an attempt to give the idea to someone else (who knows the basics of the MIC's, records, etc, and will do a quick search before hand) that the item is a sleeper and actually right.

[AOK4]

The font does indeed look quite "modern".

[thedawnpatrol]

1 hour ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

TDP - when I first saw this on the Airmens forum my heart sank a little, but I said nothing. Now it's being mentioned again I feel more obligated to respond.

I'm certain the bottle itself is genuine, but not German military issue - probably another nation or a civilian model loosely copying the German style. What I am also certain is those stamped markings are not genuine to the period. They match the work of a very well known and prolific faker exactly, even down to the font of the stamping. Possibly their most favoured modus operandi is to take otherwise unremarkable items that they would struggle to sell and add stamped markings to add value, usually selling it as "unresearched" in an attempt to give the idea to someone else (who knows the basics of the MIC's, records, etc, and will do a quick search before hand) that the item is a sleeper and actually right.

Thank you Andrew, thankfully i did not buy this but inherited it with a vast amount of other stuff,  ive collected RFC equipment, log books & uniforms for years and try as i might to like this item, there has always been doubt in my mind...........as you say, take the worst condition or 'unknown' item and embelish it with 'RFC' or 'MGC' etc and the price doubles sadly..........

it would have been nice to prove, but without any provenance deep down i know you are right.  thank you for saying what i was really thinking !

if nothing more than for a brief time we are remembering James Collins...............

[battle of loos]

Good evening
Your water bottle reminds me of a German 2nd war nurse model.
may be a post-1945 civilian reuse

michel

[thedawnpatrol]

Thank you all, well what ever it is, it wont get sold by me as something it is not !
 

[Gunner Bailey]

My first thought was that the cover was in exceptional condition for a WW1 survivor. I agree about the font looking modern. I have a number of fake French Mills grenade base plugs and a similar font is used on those.

[charlie962]

On 28/02/2023 at 14:33, Andrew Upton said:

match the work of a very well known and prolific faker exactly

Fascinating . Is this a recent enterprise or has this been going on for decades? 

Charlie

[Andrew Upton]

3 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Fascinating . Is this a recent enterprise or has this been going on for decades? 

Charlie

Decades - I was in my late teens when I first became aware of their work, and they were not new then, and are still going!

[Gunner Bailey]

6 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

Decades - I was in my late teens when I first became aware of their work, and they were not new then, and are still going!

I think they started with trench clubs and it's gone from there 

[Gunner Bailey]

Here's some of the French fake Mills base plugs. Note the spelling error and the crows foot. The Bryants plug appeared as a fake in France about six months after I supplied a photo of a rather battered original to the millsgrenades.co.uk website.

 

 

Edited 2 March , 2023 by Gunner Bailey

[charlie962]

Thank you for those examples. Provenance is everything! 

Charlie

[Chasemuseum]

13 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Provenance is everything! 

The difficulty is always how a prevenance is documented. 

Last month two telephone bell boxes were sold at C&T Auctions for GBP65. They have been enthusiastically restored giving them a finish that looks horribly wrong, but they are otherwise quite correct.

https://bid.candtauctions.co.uk/m/lot-details/index/catalog/130/lot/44615?url=%2Fm%2Fview-auctions%2Fcatalog%2Fid%2F130%3Fpage%3D12

The have now appeared on a well know internet auction site with a reserve of GBP280 as part of a collection that has been assembled by the vendor "over years" and is now time to sell.

If you collect, you have to accept that most items from the Great War, will come without a provenance. The days of obtaining the item from a veteran or their estate have now long passed. Additionally, back in the 70s very few people attempted to fake anything from WW1. Some people did, but it was rare, mostly re-marking medal groups to assemble valour groups with a higher value (eg taking a British issued group and making it an AIF group) and scratching or ink writing ownership details onto objects (a VC winners pair of binoculars in their case). A favourite was stamping ALH unit markings onto P08 sabres.   

 

Anyway, my point is that you have to look at a vendor and assess their reliability. You need to study the items your interested in and exercise judgment accordingly. The fonts on the plugs above scream "wrong".

[charlie962]

Very good points.

Restrikes, fakes etc all reasons I gave up collecting back in the 70s! Even stuff that came from museum 'clearouts' had some dubious items. 

Whilst I've hung on to some early acquisitions, I'm sticking to researching people now.

Oh dear. Have people started faking the military records ?? 

Charlie 

[Chasemuseum]

Even veteran bring back material has issues. A collector has a group of WW1 scrap books assembled by an AIF veteran who was severely wounded and returned to Australia during the war, and latter discharged. The books include the original telegrams to his family regarding some of the times he was wounded and the original award document for his military medal. In the scrap books is his original fragment of fabric from the Reb Baron's plane. 

All nice authentic stuff, the scrap books put together by the soldier with his family, all original material and assembled in the scrapbook sometime between 1918 and probably about 1921 based on the dates of some newspaper cuttings. All veteran material, he was there.

Unfortunately when the soldiers' files became accessible, the timelines started to have a problem. He was already back in Australia, in a hospital when the Baron was shot down. The aircraft fabric looks right, its red painted and doped aircraft fabric. It looks like other samples with good provenance, but he could not have taken it from the wreck nor have obtained from another soldier in the days immediately following the crash. He could only have obtained it in Australia. He may have been given it by a colleague from his unit "looking after him", more likely he obtained it from another soldier in the hospital, convalescence system. The problem is that this is at odds with the story he told his family - he did not take it from the wreck. The actual wartime provenance is compromised.