Possible Yeomanry ID?

[DavidR63]

Hi,

I'm doing some family history research for a fiend and I wonder if someone can give me some pointers on identifying this man's unit please? He is Joseph Cooper (born York 1888). Looking at his uniform and squinting at his cap and collar badges makes me think he may have been in a Yeomanry or Hussar unit. I'm trying to get a better fix when searching for his medal card and possibly a service record. These are the best images we have.

Does any have a better idea than me please?

[Michelle Young]

Welcomed to the forum. He could be 3rd or 10th Dragoon Guards. You don’t mention whether he survived the war.  
@FROGSMILEmight be able to assist with ID. 

[FROGSMILE]

12th (Prince of Wales’s Own) Lancers I think Michelle.  For a period they wore the POW feathers cap and collar badge seen here that was also used by Hussars associated with the POW (10th).  The lancers subsequently adopted a crossed lances type cap and collar badge, but I’ve seen both during WW1, especially with collar insignia.

 

Edited 23 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

It’s always difficult with POW feathers badges, as so many units favoured them, including some Yeomanry regiments.

The Wiltshire Yeomanry favoured a similar badge, but with no title scroll at all.

 

Edited 23 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

There’s also the 3rd Dragoon Guards and 10th Royal Hussars!

Edited 23 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Michelle Young]

There’s a MIC for a 10th Hussars KIA 1915. 
I meant to post 3rd Dragoons or 10th Hussars  in my first post. Not very coherent today! 

[FROGSMILE]

19 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

There’s a MIC for a 10th Hussars KIA 1915. 

That would certainly fit.  

Edited 23 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[DavidR63]

Thank you to both of you. It confirms to me that there are a lot of potential units. Looks like I'll be spending a while with the medal index cards. I should have mentioned that Joseph died in 1931 so I can rule out the 10th Hussars MIC that you found.

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, DavidR63 said:

Thank you to both of you. It confirms to me that there are a lot of potential units. Looks like I'll be spending a while with the medal index cards. I should have mentioned that Joseph died in 1931 so I can rule out the 10th Hussars MIC that you found.

The collar badges are the most helpful aspect.  Not all the regiments mentioned wore them. 

[PRC]

Hi @DavidR63 and welcome to the forum

1 hour ago, DavidR63 said:

I'm doing some family history research for a fiend

I'd suggest using this research to identify your man may be a way forward. The uniform he is photographed in may have been the regiment he only served with in the UK, and so won't be referenced on the Medal Index Cards, or he may not have served overseas at all, and so there won't be a MiC unless he was honourably discharged prior to the formal end of the conflict and so qualified for the Silver War Badge.

However given his age he would have been in the prime time of his life for getting married. If that occurred during the time when he might have been serving then grroms occupation on the marriage certificate might give you some clues. Sometimes it just says " a soldier" but other times it can be much more detailed, including barracks or camp being given as the place resident prior to the marriage.

Or if the marriage produced children during the time he might have been serving could see similar details appear on the birth certificate or baptismal records.

Combining details from those like place of residence, if they fall between the 1911 and 1921 Census records, will also allow you a good chance at establishing where he might have been recorded on the 1918 and 1919 Absent Voters List - if he wanted to register to vote. The big problems in using this route are usually establishing where someone might have regarded as their home address, and then finding out if the relevant AVL had survived or is accessible. For more on how the Absent Voters Lists can help with tracking down a serviceman see our parent site, The Long, Long Trail. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

There is also his status to consider on the 1911 and 1921 Censuses. If he was a pre-war regular who was still in the Colours part of his service, then he should be recorded with his unit. The scope of the 1911 Census of England & Wales included garrisons around the British Empire.

Or if he was still serving in 1921 it is likely he will be shown with his unit.

Hope that helps,

Peter

[DavidR63]

Thank you Peter, some very useful tips there.

I've found him on the 1911 & 21 census and his 1913 marriage record. Nothing with any military information on those records, but he had two children in 1916 & 1918 and their birth records may yield something.

I have access to the AVL via my family history society, so can do some digging there.

I've not found any positive identification for him on the MiC, lots of negatives, so suppose that is something!

Joseph had two brothers, sadly they both were killed on the Western Front.

Regards

David

[PRC]

1 hour ago, DavidR63 said:

Joseph had two brothers, sadly they both were killed on the Western Front.

Do either of those have surviving service records? If so they may contain a surviving form W.5080 which was sent out to the next of kin post-war. The layout of the form pretty much follows the UK hierarchy of inheritance as it applied at the time, so wife, children, parents, the brothers, (full-blood and half-blood) and sisters (full-blood and half-blood) were to be listed. There were further categories such as grand-parents and aunts & uncles, but they were only to be completed in the event that all the other categories were blank

Most were completed in a timescale that was after the bulk of the demobilisation, but I've certainly come across instances of brothers in the army or airforce shown c\o their unit and others in the navy c\o their ship. Even the negative reference also puts an end date on when Joseph had been demobilised \ discharged.

And of course they can be a right little genealogical goldmine. On other cases I've been able to find "lost" sisters of that generation who had emigrated and married, (the form asks for ages and addresses), as well as firm up the suspicion that a sibling had died as they are not referenced. On one occasion what I had assumed to be a full blood sister also turned out to be half-blood which was interesting, to put it mildly, particularly as the friend I was helping was contemplating the DNA testing route using a descendant of that individual.

Cheers,
Peter

[kenf48]

The Yeomanry unit raised in York was 'B' Squadron. Yorkshire Hussars (Alexandra, Princess of Wales’s Own)

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-yeomanry-regiments-of-1914-1918/yorkshire-hussars-alexandra-princess-of-waless-own/

Yorkshire Mounted Brigade

That is definitively not their cap badge.

He could of course enlisted elsewhere in another Yeomanry unit but that seems unlikely.

Apart from the official forms noted by Peter, sometimes newspapers when reporting deaths will note where other brothers are serving.

 

[FROGSMILE]

He is quite young and yet immaculately dressed, with puttees tied to perfection, highly polished bandolier, a regimental type of lanyard with spring clip, collar badges and a short shoulder title typical of regular cavalry, which usually comprised a letter and numerals, unlike yeomanry units which tended to have a long title topped by a Y.  In short he is a seasoned and confident wearer of uniform.  I cannot be 100% certain, but his appearance suggests to me a soldier in a regular army cavalry unit. 

Edited 23 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[max7474]

The s/t is clearly a regular cavalry unit.  The 12th Lancers badge changed i 1903 so 10th Hussars or 3 DG is a better bet.