Capt. John Francis McGuire

[Grovetown]

I'm trying to pin down more information on the above guy, having located his attestation papers in the Canadian archives.

He attested into the 113th on July 1st 1915 at the age of 41, having had previous service with the 2 Connaught Rangers.

I also believe he may have previously served with, or was transferred to, the 63rd Bn CEF.

I appreciate that pickings are lean when it comes to the 113th, but can anyone give me a clue if he stayed in Canada, or went to England with them and thence into a battalion in France?

Any help much appreciated.

Regards,

Grovetown.

[Neil Burns]

Most of this information was gathered from 'Lethbridge at War' by Major Christopher R. Kilford, CD.

This is one of the 'chapters' for the summary I am attempting to write for my family regarding my G-uncle's service. I've edited out any reference to him personally which leaves a nice little synopsis of the 113th.

The 113th Canadian Expeditionary Force

The Lethbridge Highlanders

The point of mobilization for the 13th Military District was Lethbridge and the Headquarters for the District was Calgary. The 113th Canadian Expeditionary Force (CEF) the Lethbridge Highlanders were organized December 22, 1915, they were part of a Canadian recruiting drive where men from the same region could enlist and serve together. This type of community spirit recruiting was very popular as it drew in friends, neighbors coworkers etc. with the promise of serving together throughout the war.

The 113th consisted of 883 men and officers and had it’s barracks at the exhibition grounds in Lethbridge. The Battalion was not issued Highland Kit (Kilts, Glengarry caps etc.) although it’s three pipe and drum bands were! Standard Basic Training in the CEF lasted 14 weeks so the Battalion spent the beginning of 1916 in training and drilling in Lethbridge at the exhibition grounds. Basic training in the CEF involved rifle training, bombing or hand grenade practice, route marches, rifle drill and many inspections. Inspections were very popular for the 113th as many wished to hear their three bands.

In Late May 1916 the Battalion moved to Sarcee Camp outside Calgary for further training that lasted until September. During the time spent at Sarcee the Battalion used painted rocks to construct their Battalion Number on nearby Signal Hill in Calgary. This bold white stone ‘113’ is still visible today and preserved as a park.

In early September 1916 orders came for the Battalion to entrain for the east and by September 19 the Battalion was on its’ way.

On September 26th 1916 the 113th embarked along with the 111th and 145th Battalions on the SS Tuscania, a transport ship, the trip across the Atlantic took ten days and upon arriving in England the Battalion was taken to a holding camp at Sandling near Shorncliffe. It was at Sandling that Lt. Colonel Pryce-Jones the commanding officer learned that the 113th would be broken up for replacements and would not see action as a unit after all.

One can only imagine the disappointment of these men as they learned the fate of the 113th, their Battalion, after 10 months training together.

The 113th was transferred to the 17th Reserve Battalion CEF the Nova Scotia Highlanders affiliated with the Scottish Seaforth Highlanders. The 17th was at Bramshott Camp located South of London.

On October 12, 1916 most of the old 113th proceeded to France arriving at a camp near Le Havre France. Almost immediately 300 men of the old 113th were assigned as replacements to one of the most famous Battalions in the CEF, the 16th Battalion, The Canadian Scottish. An idea of the casualties suffered by the 16th in the Somme fighting of the Fall of 1916 can be understood by this reinforcement. This would mean that roughly 30% of the 16th were new transfers from the 113th.

[Broznitsky]

Nice summary Neil; I believe "Scarcee" is spelled Sarcee.

(I think my Dad was there in WWII.)

[Neil Burns]

Edited accordingly.

Thanks Peter, I suppose my Jersey was showing!

[jhill]

I'm trying to pin down more information on the above guy, having located his attestation papers in the Canadian archives.

He attested into the 113th on July 1st 1915 at the age of 41, having had previous service with the 2 Connaught Rangers.

I also believe he may have previously served with, or was transferred to, the 63rd Bn CEF.

I appreciate that pickings are lean when it comes to the 113th, but can anyone give me a clue if he stayed in Canada, or went to England with them and thence into a battalion in France?

snip, snip

Grovetown.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have tried to check a few sources, but have yet only come up with negative information.

The 63rd proceeded overseas in April, 1916. Your fellow's name does not appear on the published list of officers, so either he transferred from the 63rd to the 113th (presumably in January) rather than the other way round, or went elsewhere in the interum.

The Lethbridge newspaper often published photographs of the 113th officers. I have not seen one of your fellow, but I have not gone through the whole file.

In addition to what Neil has posted about the 113th, I can add that quite a few of them were posted to the 85th Battalion (Nova Scotia), which replaced the 73rd Battalion after Vimy.

Although I have no hard information, I think it unlikely that this officer would have served in France. By the time the 113th (or the 63rd) reached England most officer appointments in France were chosen from those with service in France. There were exceptions; for example, the 85th, being late to the front, took its officers with them. However, your man's name does not appear on the 85th Battalion nominal role.

Of course, I may be wrong.

[jhill]

O.K. I have a bit more information.

The 63rd Battalion (Edmonton Overseas) began recruiting about the beginning of July, 1915. As an innovation, D Company was initially recruited in Medicine Hat. John McGuire must have been one of the first recruits, since the local newspaper reported by July 8, that the new recruits were being drilled by Sergt.-Maj. McGuire. Incidently, there seems to have been several families of McGuires or MaGuires in the adjoining community of Happy Hollow, but I cannot say if that is where John originated. D Company moved to Sarcee in, I think, July, and by the end of August John McGuire was promoted Regimental Sergt.-Maj. By the end of September he had been commisioned Lieutenant.

Thus it seems clear that he was transferred to the 113th Battalion in January, 1916. His officer's declaration was thus a bit of a forgery, having been back-dated to the previous July.

I may have mis-read a few details here and there.

[Grovetown]

Firstly, thank you Neil for the background on the 113th. And I was also sorry to read that your forum has been smashed up.

And thank you James for your input.

The dates are indeed confusing as his Officers' Declaration plainly states 01-07-15. There is also a note on the side of the paper (attached) that seems to say 'Lieut on Transfer, 63rd OB CEF, 20-01-16'.

The man was from Ireland which would account for his service in the Connaughts, and perhaps how he became SM/ RSM so quickly.

I have no trouble accepting that he didn't go overseas, but the puzzling thing then is what was his kit trunk (now awaiting a clean up in my garage) doing in a bric-a-bric market in Devon last Saturday? I'll post an image of it shortly.

Many thanks and regards,

Grovetown.

[jhill]

I have one more bit of information which muddies the water even more. The War Diary of the 5th Canadian Reserve Infantry Brigade records that at Bramshott on July 13,1917, Major McGuire, J.F., 17th Reserve Battalion (along with a list of other senior officers), was struck off strength on proceeding overseas. The entry is here .

Normally, this would mean he went to France, but the lack of mention of the new units of these officers may also mean they were being returned to Canada.

There was a considerable problem since 1916 with the Canadian forces in England caused by the way reinforcements were sent in formed battalions (like the 113th!), which were subsequently broken up and their men sent as reinforcements to other units at the front. A large pool of officers formed in England who were surplus to requirements. Eventually, such officers were considered draft conducting officers and returned to Canada.

Of course, even this would not explain why his kit trunk remained in England.

It is an interesting exercise!

[Grovetown]

James

Thanks very much again for your efforts. Sorry for the delay in replying - took a late Easter break. Herewith the item in question below (and not cleaned yet).

I wonder if he did go to France, on the basis that if going there, he wouldn't necessarily lug the trunk over. If returning to Canada, one could see it going with him.

Thanks again.

Best wishes,

Grovetown.