Any clues on uniform and year?

[jp1885]

Hi all - it’s been a while!

I’ve been sent a couple of old family photos, which I’m trying to date to help me identify the subjects.

Can anyone advise on the rough date, regiment etc? I’m not sure if it’s the same soldier in both photos.

(I’ve included a close up of the one cap badge - it’s the best shot the photo’s owner could get.)

Thanks in advance!

[Pat Atkins]

Cap badge in the second looks like East Surreys (possibly 23rd London, though I think they were voided around the central shield).

[Michelle Young]

Are the first two photos really as blurred as that in the original ? Unfortunately, owing to the quality of the images, I’m unable to make out anything. Are they father and son? 

[jp1885]

Hi, thanks both for your replies - most helpful!

Alas, I don’t have the actual photos in my possession, but I believe the original is blurred.

I’m intrigued by the split cap strap behind the badge in the first photo - would that give us any clues, or was it a common practice?

[FROGSMILE]

Both same man I think.  The first badge looks like Essex Yeomanry TF approximately 1908 at a guess, and second photo is perhaps East Surrey Regiment Volunteer Battalion formed from older men near the end of the war. 

Edited 13 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[jp1885]

Thanks! So possibly someone living in the south east?

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, jp1885 said:

Thanks! So possibly someone living in the south east?

That’s what is implied yes.  As an older man he has two good conduct badges (inverted stripes) on his left cuff that indicate 5-years blemish free full-time service, but he has no medal ribbons and is turned so that no overseas stripes would be visible (on his right cuff) and that suggests to me that he has none.  It seems probable to me that he had home service (in Britain) only and did not go to France.

Edited 13 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[jp1885]

Thanks very much for your help - much appreciated!

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, jp1885 said:

Thanks very much for your help - much appreciated!

I’m glad to help.  Thinking it through further it’s also possible as an alternative that the first photo might show him as a member of an Essex unit in the National Reserve.

The National Reserve was originally formed as the Veteran Reserve, but changed its title after one year.  It was formed from older men who had previous service in either the regular army or auxiliaries of the old rifle volunteer corps.

The idea was that they already had military service and although unsuitable for the frontline in France would be useful for guarding vulnerable points in Britain like railway junctions, bridges and waterways, etc.

It’s possible then that your photo shows such a man, who might perhaps have later joined the alternative auxiliaries, the Volunteer Force, that was established by a major restructuring of the former Volunteer Training Corps, via its adoption and kitting out by the War Office in the last 2-years of the war.

They were an early form of WW2’s ‘Dad’s Army’.  However, all of this is just my speculation and without a name and other family details it’s impossible to be sure of anything.

Edited 13 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

If the first photo shows a husband, wife and daughter group then I don't think the man is as old as he appears. It's the mooey that puts years on him. I would say they are a couple of about 30 years of age with their 5 or 6 year-old daughter. Having said that, there is no sign of a wedding ring. As for the cap badge, take your pick, 5DG, 7H, Shropshire Yeomanry, Essex Yeomanry, Worcestershire Hussars, East Kent Yeomanry, AVC, Remounts (second pattern), maybe an infantry transport section, it's pure guesswork, the cap badge is too blurred to identify.      Pete.

[Pat Atkins]

I'm not sure I can see the two photos as the same man. I think it's perhaps son and father (I agree there is a strong resemblance). Not 100% sure of this, and I take CP's point about the 'tache.

[FROGSMILE]

Yes it’s all very unclear.  My speculation was nothing more than that and on the basis that I believe it’s the same man in both photos.

Working backwards from that presumption what we do know is that the older man seems to be wearing an East Surrey Regiment cap badge, and is manifestly older than the average infantry private and therefore probably an auxiliary of some sort, given that he’s not been siphoned off into the Labour Corps.  That probably means he’s living close to his own home, which would be somewhere in the South of England.

Working backward from that start point and looking at him in the seemingly earlier photo in a bandolier, as a man at least some years younger, and probably with his family, it seems reasonable to conclude he’s probably still living at home then too.

With nary a sign of regular service for a mature man, no medal ribbons, or skill at arms badges so far as I can see, nor any good conduct badges, then he’s probably an auxiliary soldier and rationally therefore still located in the South of England.

Given the later photo, then I looked for a mounted unit that encompassed all those factors.  The geographically nearest South of England unit with a cap badge of that shape, which as Pete says, is common and covers a number of other regular and auxiliary cavalry units, is the Essex Yeomanry.  So hence my reasoned, initial comments.

Edited 14 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[jp1885]

Thanks again.

My main motivation for posting was to see if they were close relations, as the woman looks very similar to my great-grandmother. However I don’t think they ever lived in the south east, and the potential dates don’t particularly link up.

Edit: Added photo of my great grandparents and their son for reference.

Edited 14 February , 2023 by jp1885

[PRC]

May be a co-incidence but the 1911 Census of England & Wales shows an Ernest George Warren running his own Photographic Studio at 2 Benhilton Villas, Benhill Avenue, Sutton, Surrey. May be my dodgy eyesight but looks like the photographer for the older soldier, taken at "a" Sutton, (there are so many Suttons in the UK to choose from), was an E Warren.

Ernest is known to have had a studio at 42 Lind Avenue, Sutton, Surrey in 1902 - he gets a passing mention here https://suttonnewtowncommunityfestival.org.uk/f/sutton-new-towns-victorian-photographer?blogcategory=Photography

And his own page here, although the format of the sample picture looks to have been from earlier in his career. https://suttonnewtowncommunityfestival.org.uk/the-history/f/lind-roads-edwardian-photographer?blogcategory=History

There may be other pictures out there that bear this studio imprint, and of course it may not read "E.Warren".

Hope that's not a red herring,

Peter

[max7474]

The first photo is more likely to be Essex Yeomanry with a bandolier.  The Essex National Reserve was not a uniform cap badge but a lapel badge for a civilian jacket..

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

These two women?

 

Edited 14 February , 2023 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, max7474 said:

The first photo is more likely to be Essex Yeomanry with a bandolier.  The Essex National Reserve was not a uniform cap badge but a lapel badge for a civilian jacket..

I too think that the Essex Yeomanry is more likely for the reasons I’ve just outlined.

39 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

These two women?

 

Yes good point Dai, the jawline especially is very similar.  Sisters perhaps.

Edited 14 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[jp1885]

2 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

These two women?

 

Yes, those two.

Two more photos for reference.

Edited 14 February , 2023 by jp1885