SDGW

[Northern Soul]

Please could some kind soul supply me with the relevant details from SDGW for the following men?

41697, Pte. James McDONALD, 5th Bn. North Staffordshire Regt. 17th April, 1918.

61799, Pte. William Henry WASSALL, 10th Bn. West Yorkshire Regt. 30th April, 1918.

G/92860, L/Cpl. John William STEVENSON, 1st/7th Bn. Middlesex Regt. 26th Aug., 1918.

202359, Pte. William GELLING, 22nd Bn. Manchester Regt. 4th Oct., 1917.

Many thanks.

Andy.

[KONDOA]

41697, Pte. James McDONALD, 5th Bn. North Staffordshire Regt. 17th April, 1918. Born Liverpool,Enlisted Barrow in Furness, KIA Formerly 4/36863. Royal Lancs.

61799, Pte. William Henry WASSALL, 10th Bn. West Yorkshire Regt. 30th April, 1918. Born Barrow in Furness, Enlisted Barrow in Furness. KIA

G/92860, L/Cpl. John William STEVENSON, 1st/7th Bn. Middlesex Regt. 26th Aug., 1918. Born Barrow in Furness, Enlisted Barrow in Furness.KIA

Formerly 04390, 661 Coy ASC

202359, Pte. William GELLING, 22nd Bn. Manchester Regt. 4th Oct., 1917. Born Manchester, Enlisted manchester. KIA

Roop

[Northern Soul]

Excellent. Thanks very much Roop.

Andy.

[John_Hartley]

Andy

Just being nosy, mate - about your interest in Gelling. Bit off your normal area of interest, isn't he?

John

[AGWR]

John William Stevenson also served in the 17th Middlesex.

Regards,

AGWR

[Northern Soul]

He is rather. Born and enlisted Manchester - with a TF number to boot. He is, however, commemorated on Barrow-in-Furness War Memorial (and it lists him as Manchester Regiment so there is no question of a misidentification). The big question is why is he on there? - There is nothing in the contemporary newspapers so I was hoping SDGW would provide the answer ....... but apparently not !

Any idea what the 22nd Bn. were up to on that date?

Cheers.

Andy.

[Northern Soul]

John William Stevenson also served in the 17th Middlesex.

Regards,

AGWR

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

AGWR,

How did you know this? Can you give me any more details please?

Andy.

[AGWR]

Andy,

He is listed on the medal rolls (V&BWM Roll- WO 329-1507). Unless I transcribed it incorrectly, he went from 1/7- 17-1/7 . Quite a few 92800s served in the 17th battalion.

Regards,

AGWR

[John_Hartley]

Andy

At 6am on 4/10 (if I've Stedman correctly), 22/Mancs attacked from Polygon Wood, in conjunction with 1/South Staffs.

Do you have access to Stedman's "Manchester Pals" or do you need me to type it up and email it to you?

John

[Chris_Baker]

From 1st South Staffords War Diary:

Formed up for attack by 4.30pm (3 October), east of Polygon Wood.

Operation orders:

Part of a general attack by 2nd Army, the objective is the Red Line on the 91st Brigade front. The 8th Devons (20th Brigade) will be on the left, the 3/4th Queens (21st Division) on the right. The 22nd Manchesters will pass through the battalion at Z+110, and will capture the Blue Line.

The barrage will be 150 yards ahead, remaining 3 minutes then moving forward at 200 yards in 8 minutes. It will then move to the Red protective barrage (200 yards in front of the Red Line) at 100 yards in 6 minutes, and then to Blue at 100 yards in 8. The barrage will include smoke shells to indicate that we have gained Red and Blue.

If the wind is from the SW to NE, a smoke screen will be placed on Gheluvelt and Becelaere. A dummy barrage will be fired on Gheluvelt by the 5th Divisional Artillery.

By Z-60, the 1st South Staffords will form up on a tape from J.10.b.1.8 to b.1.10, and will be closed up to a depth 120 yards front to rear. The form up will be gradual and silent, under cover of posts and patrols.

At zero the ranks will follow the creeping barrage, D Coy to right front, A to left front. B and C Coys will support and mop up. The Coy boundary will be J.10.b.12.40 - b.00.45 - b.90.70.

After the 22nd Manchesters have passed, Coys will consolidate, with special attention to be paid to Jolting Houses at J.11.a.7.5. two Vickers machine guns will takje up the latter position. One Stokes gun will be placed at the disposal of the battalion. An advanced report centre will be set up, by 2/Lt G.A.C.Sheffield, with scouts, 6 signallers and 4 runners. Visual receiving will be at The Mound (Battalion HQ) at J.10.a.7.8.

Red flares will be lit on the first and second objectives, when a contact aeroplane fires a white light or sounds a horn. The latter will carry a black board on the left lower wing, and 3 broad bands on the body.

SOS will be a rifle grenade parachute showing red over green over yellow. A daylight red mortar signal should be reserved only for grave emergencies.

Lt F.Robinson MC will be attached to the 3/4th Queens for liaison.

RAP will be at The Mound.

Concentration orders:

Relieve the 1st RWF tonight. The Battalion will parade on the road in front of the captive balloon in H30a. Move off crossroads at H.30.a.35.80 at 0300. On arriving at Hooge Crater, guides will be picked up. Platoons to move at 50 yards intervals.

Tea on halt. Lewis guns off limbers at same.

Those not going are to report to Major D.C.Twiss outside orderly room at 1430.

Equipment: rifle and equipment less pack. 220 rounds SAA. Haversack and one day ration and iron ration. Ground sheet, box respirator, PH helmet. 2 sandbags. Full bottles. The RE dump will be at The Mound.

Water in captured territory will not be consumed until it has been examined by a medical officer.

Operations narrative:

Battalion formed up without incident. There was a good deal of shelling over Polygon Wood, with little damage. Zero was at 0600, and we progressed steadily to timetable.

The right came under heavy machine gun fire, otherwise casualties were light. A large number of Germans were shot or bayonetted, and no pillbox gave trouble.

The 22nd Manchesters passed through and consolidation began, of two defence zones. Jolting House Trench, and a trench running J.5.c.65.10 to J.11.a.5.4. Both gave an excellent field of fire eastwards. A strong point for 2 Lewis and 2 men at J.11.b.3.2 proved an invaluable pivot for the right flank.

At 1300, the enemy opened a stiff barrage, which lasted all afternoon and evening. The situation behind the Blue Line was quiet. The Co went round the posts in the eveneing.

At 0330, the 2nd Queens arrived. They had lost their CO. Beauman assumed command, and ordered them to dig in in Polygon Wood, and await orders.

Reports received at 0430 suggested the Brigade on our right were in unstable condition, so we re-adjusted our own line to have the maximum number of guns on the right, and disposed two Coys of the Queens to form a defensive flank south along Jolting Houses ridge.

The night passed without incident, but for shelling on the Red Line. In the morning of the 5th, the Co went to recce the situation on the right. Considerable elements of the 21st Division were dug in on Reutel ridge but appeared mixed up and disorganised.

Sniping from Judge Copse and machine gun fire from Polderhoek was becoming troublesome and causing casualties. There was heavy shelling all day.

The day of the 6th was quiet, and the battalion were relieved.

Results:

[a] an advance made of 800-900 yards on a 450 yard front; estimated 150 Germans killed; [c] 80-100 prisoners taken; [d] 3 light machine guns and 6 medium trench mortars captured.

Losses:

Killed 3 officers and 36 OR. Wounded 7 officers and 223 OR. Missing 49 OR.

Lessons:

Insufficient shovels and sandbags. Communications to Battn HQ needs 2 officers. Infantry to be warned when a barrage is coming. SOS signals only to be carried by officers (many set off unnecessarily, setting off repeats all down the line).

Killed: Lt (A/Capt) T.D.Parkes, 2/LtM.H.Philips, 2/Lt C.Teague

Wounded Lt L.Wolverson, Lt A.J.C.Culhane, 2/Lts F.H.Slingsby, T.M.Leece, H.Lycett, C.H.Farmer, D.S.Glaze

Hope that's useful!

[John_Hartley]

Andy

Seeing as I owe you an awful lot of typing, here's the extract from Stedman:-

“In preparation for this attack the men of 21st and 22nd Manchesters sheltered in the filthy dug-outs on the railway embankments west of Zillebeke during the evening of 2nd October. Late on the evening of the following day the men were taken up in darkness to assemble within Polygon Wood astride the Polygonbeek just east of the Racecouurse. They were in position by 2.30am.

As the attack got underway at 6am the initial advance of 91 Brigade towards Red Line first objectives was undertaken successfully by 1st South. Staffs and the 22 Mancs. advanced to a position 400 yards in advance of the South Staffs forming up tapes. The rain which had begun to fall did nothing to slow their advance and large numbers of Germans were taken prisoner, others streaming away in retreat to the east. Meanwhile the men of the 22nd Mancs. awaited their orders to advance behind the shelter of a further 90 minutes of barrage, which searched the area beyond the red line. At 8.10 their advance towards the blue line restarted but it was immediately clear that things were now going to prove much harder. Although German dead belonging to the three divisions who had been massing here were thickly strewn around the whole area, the defence stood firm and it was clear that the attack by the 21st Division on the Mancs. right had not developed as expected. Advancing towards In der Ster Cabaret, 22nd Mancs. were caught in enfilade by machine gun fire from Joiner’s Rest. At 9.30a, “D” Company of 21st Mancs were sent forward to support the attack. During the early afternoon, about 2pm, “C” Company of the 21st Manc was also sent up to help make these positions secure. A defensive flank to the right was thrown back to link with the men of 21st Division, whose progress had been less rapid and the process of consolidation was begun. It was cold and only a bare minimum of shelter could be scraped before meeting the welling water which oozed upwards within the saturated and broken soil. The only consolation was that the land gained was held and the wounded this time had the chance to be pulled out and taken back to hospital before the onset of gangrene……….The casualties amongst the 21st Manc had been four officers killed and ten wounded, amongst the other ranks 35 men were killed, 148 wounded and 19 missing. In the 22nd Battalion, the figures were worse still, two officers killed and seven wounded together with 279 other ranks killed wounded or missing. The 22nd Battalion was relieved from these positions on 7th October.”

regards

John