Peaked Cap Identification 1912

[PRC]

George Hebden Raleigh - Essex Regiment and RFC, killed in an air accident off Dunkirk, 20th January 1915.

A nucleus of personnel were provided by B Flt of No. 2 Sqn, and No. 4 Sqn was officially formed at Farnborough on 16 September 1912. This new squadron was placed under the command of Major George Hebden Raleigh, an Australian serving in the Essex Regiment. https://www.jeversteamlaundry.org/4squadhistory1.htm

An according to the Air History site he was still Squadron Commander when No.4 Squadron left for France in August 1914. http://www.airhistory.org.uk/rfc/EF3.html

So if this is a photograph of the newly formed No.4 Squadron, you'd expect him to be present.

Comparison pictures sources , (in a rough chronological order of when I believe the pictures to have been taken).

1. From the edition of The War Illustrated dated 13th February 1915, part of a photo gallery Roll of Honour. https://archive.org/details/TWI1915pt1/page/n195/mode/2up?q=George+Hebden+Raleigh&view=theater

2. To be treated with caution - Google images still has this picture and attributes it to a site called PakenhamWW1. That site is now defunct, it doesn't seem to have reappeared under a different webname, and it doesn't appear to have been archived by the wayback machine or archive org. Having said which it has enough in common with known pictures 1 and 3 for it to be likely to be him.

3. The Imperial War Museum, also used by Lives of the First World War.
IWM https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205387490
Lives of the First World War. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/5399480

Given normal group, let alone military dynamics, I'd expect the commanding officer to be close to the centre of the picture, and not crowded out by others. Looking at those closest to the propeller and who are at the front I think the closest match would be 10 edit 12, and oddly you can't even rule out the "civilian". If it was wartime I would, but George seems to have been active in various clubs and commitees that were not strictly of a military nature, and so could have been on his way to one of those when an impromptu photo session took place!

Edit deleted 19.45 08/02/2023 to prevent future subsequent confusion for anyone finding this thread via a web search, see later post for an updated comparison.

 

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 8 February , 2023 by PRC
1) Typo's 2) Image deleted to prevent future confusion

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, PRC said:

George Hebden Raleigh - Essex Regiment and RFC, killed in an air accident off Dunkirk, 20th January 1915.

A nucleus of personnel were provided by B Flt of No. 2 Sqn, and No. 4 Sqn was officially formed at Farnborough on 16 September 1912. This new squadron was placed under the command of Major George Hebden Raleigh, an Australian serving in the Essex Regiment. https://www.jeversteamlaundry.org/4squadhistory1.htm

An according to the Air History site he was still Squadron Commander when No.4 Squadron left for France in August 1914. http://www.airhistory.org.uk/rfc/EF3.html

So if this is a photograph of the newly formed No.4 Squadron, you'd expect him to be present.

Comparison pictures sources , (in a rough chronological order of when I believe the pictures to have been taken).

1. From the edition of The War Illustrated dated 13th February 1915, part of a photo gallery Roll of Honour. https://archive.org/details/TWI1915pt1/page/n195/mode/2up?q=George+Hebden+Raleigh&view=theater

2. To be treated with caution - Google images still has this picture and attributees it to a site called PakenhamWW1. That site is now defunct, it doesn't seem to have reappeared under a different webname, and it doesn't appear to have been archived by the wayback machine or archive org. Having said which it has enough in common with known pictures 1 and 3 for it to be likely to be him.

3. The Imperial War Museum, also used by Lives of the First World War.
IWM https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205387490
Lives of the First World War. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/5399480

Given normal group, let alone military dynamics, I'd expect the commanding officer to be close to the centre of the picture, and not crowded out by others. Looking at those closest to the propeller and who are at the front I think the closest match would be 10, and oddly you can't even rule out the "civilian". If it was wartime I would, but George seems to have been active in various clubs and commitees that were not strictly of a military nature, and so could have been on his way to one of those when an impromptu photo session took place!

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

#10 is definitely Sherwood Foresters Peter, as we could clearly identify his insignia in one of the close ups.  Did Raleigh complete his transfer to the RFC?  If so he could by #12 in a maternity jacket as there is some facial resemblance, he’s a captain and appears close to the aircraft in centre of frame.  Failing that the fellow in civilian clothes is, as you say, a possibility.

Edited 8 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

10 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

#10 is definitely Sherwood Foresters Peter, as we could clearly identify his insignia in one of the close ups.  Did Raleigh complete his transfer to the RFC?  If so he could by #12 in a maternity jacket as there is some facial resemblance, he’s a captain and appears close to the aircraft in centre of frame.  Failing that the fellow in civilian clothes is, as you say, a possibility.

10 in the numbering I added to the picture was the civilian.

"My" number 8 is the officer @dawrana has identified as Becke of the Sherwood Foresters. Officer 12 was stated to be one of the unknowns - I'm assuming thats the man I've numbered as 12.

Happy to amend the numbering if I've got it wrong - just need someone to tell me which numbers to swap.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, PRC said:

10 in the numbering I added to the picture was the civilian.

"My" number 8 is the officer @dawrana has identified as Becke of the Sherwood Foresters. Officer 12 was stated to be one of the unknowns - I'm assuming thats the man I've numbered as 12.

Happy to amend the numbering if I've got it wrong - just need someone to tell me which numbers to swap.

Cheers,
Peter

 

No you’re right and I’ve misread the photo. #8 is indeed Essex Regiment I believe (though a poor image of insignia) and the civilian #10 as you say.  Time for me to bathe eyes I think….

Edited 8 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

No you’re right and I’ve misread the photo

Mea culpa - I originally wrote officer 10 and the "civilian", when it should have been officer 12 and the civilian. So if you think officer 12 in the RFC maternity jacket is a good facial match as well then seems worth further investigating.

The edition of The Aeroplane dated June 20th, 1912 simply shows him as Essex Regiment, appointed to the Royal Flying Corps. https://archive.org/details/aeroplane21912lond/page/602/mode/1up?q=George+Hebden+Raleigh

The 1914 Birthday Honours List has him promoted to Major for services in connection with the Military Wing, Royal Flying Corps, but his unit is shown as the Essex Regiment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1914_Birthday_Honours

His Medal Index Card is shown as Essex attached Royal Flying Corps. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4769383
His Commonwealth War Graves Commission webpage shows him as Royal Flying Corps and Essex Regiment. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/617373/george-hebden-raleigh/

So unless there was some sort of expectation that Squadron Commanders set the dress standard by adopting the new uniform, (or he liked to splash the cash!), then probably either he is another one of the men on display here, or George Hebden Raleigh was absent.

Cheers,
Peter

 

 

Edited 8 February , 2023 by PRC
Typo

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, PRC said:

Mea culpa - I originally wrote officer 10 and the "civilian", when it should have been officer 12 and the civilian. So if you think officer 12 in the RFC maternity jacket is a good facial match as well then seems worth further investigating.

The edition of The Aeroplane dated June 20th, 1912 simply shows him as Essex Regiment, appointed to the Royal Flying Corps. https://archive.org/details/aeroplane21912lond/page/602/mode/1up?q=George+Hebden+Raleigh

The 1914 Birthday Honours List has him promoted to Major for services in connection with the Military Wing, Royal Flying Corps, but his unit is shown as the Essex Regiment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1914_Birthday_Honours

His Medal Index Card is shown as Essex attached Royal Flying Corps. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4769383
His Commonwealth War Graves Commission webpage shows him as Royal Flying Corps and Essex Regiment. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/617373/george-hebden-raleigh/

So unless there was some sort of expectation that Squadron Commanders set the dress standard by adopting the new uniform, (or he liked to splash the cash!), then probably either he is another one of the men on display here, or George Hebden Raleigh was absent.

Cheers,
Peter

 

 

If he was still Essex Regiment at the time then protocol would have required him to wear his parent regiment’s dress, although in the very early days of the RFC (which remember was officially a joint services organisation), aberration is not entirely impossible.  It would be unusual though.

Edited 8 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

While looking for more information on whether George Hebden Raleigh had formally transferred to the Royal Flying Corps, I noticed that the next name in the list of Captains promoted Brevet Major in the 1914 Birthday Honours list was a John Harold Whitworth Becke, Sherwood Foresters - I'm assuming that is the men we are interested in.

Sources for picture comparison.

1. This thread - officer 8 in the main numbered picture.

2: Wikipedia - picture stated to be in the public domain. Caption reads "Captain Becke, No. 2 Squadron RFC, arriving at Upper Dysart on 26 February 1913."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Becke#/media/File:Capt_Becke_arrival_at_Upper_Dysart_26_February_1913.jpg

3: From a blog piece on "Early aviation in and around Offaly" which includes the following "The first association between the RFC and Ireland on 1st September 1913 was truly historic, being the first overseas deployment of the RFC. Five BE2a aircraft, flown by Captains JWH Becke, CAH Longcroft and ACH McClean, Lieutenants FF Waldron and L Dawes and a single Maurice Farman Longhorn, piloted by Captain GWP Dawes, all of No 2 Squadron based at Montrose, flew from Scotland on their way to take part in large-scale Irish Command manoeuvres centred around Rathbane Camp near Limerick." https://offalyhistoryblog.wordpress.com/2019/02/23/early-aviation-in-and-around-offaly-by-guy-warner/

The picture itself appears in a number of places on the internet and I may well have used one of those sources for the actual image - but they focus on the aircraft. The blog was the only one the attempts to identify the men standing round it that I could find.

4: Imperial War Museum, reference Q 5590 . The caption to the whole photograph reads "King George V receiving officers of No. 52 Squadron of the Royal Flying Corps near Bray-Dunes, 5 July 1917. On the left are seen Brigadier General John Harold Whitworth Becke, commanding the 4th Brigade RFC, and General Sir Henry Rawlinson" https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205237711

5: Undated picture of Brigadier General John Becke, sourced Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Becke

6: Undated civilian picture,  but could be Great War contemporary or not long after I suspect. https://airwar19141918.wordpress.com/tag/john-harold-whitworth-becke/

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owners).

Cheers,
Peter

[dawrana]

Well, hopefully all is now nicely back on track?

But perhaps I can summarise? The numbering is fine, many thanks to PRC. The date of the photograph (for which we have strong circumstantial evidence) is late 1912 or early 1913. The occasion could well be to do with the spin-off of #4 Squadron from #2 Squadron. In the centre of the photograph (as you'd expect), we have the new Squadron Commander (#14 Raleigh), together with his team - #13 (currently unknown - needs more work) and #12 (Hynes - from his modest stature), all dressed up in their brand-new "maternity jackets", bought at their own expense to reinforce the team culture of their new RFC Squadron. Note Raleigh holding the official paperwork for the spin-off, plus Burch at #15 - there doing his job as assistant to Sykes, and doing some relevant record-keeping. The civilian at #10 is from the Royal Aircraft Factory, to hand over the Breguet aircraft that they have been working on. Could be O'Gorman, but there are divided opinions about this. Definitely not Sykes (too tall), but maybe O'Gorman sent a "gofer"? Yes, Raleigh had been Essex Regiment, but now proudly "branding" his new RFC Squadron.

You will understand the extra colour I have added!

Pretty much everyone else in the photograph has been identified by name. #8 is certainly Becke. #2 is RFC Quartermaster Pryce - again, there to sort out the admin relating to the spin-off. 

The main people needing more work are #13 (possibly one of Raleigh's new Flight Commanders?), #16 (a seconded Royal Engineer?), #20 and #21 (not much visible evidence showing).

Thank you all very much for joining in - particularly Frogsmile, whose brilliant work with the fuzzy badges has helped with the personal identifications.

Edited 8 February , 2023 by dawrana
Correct Dawes to Becke

[PRC]

13 minutes ago, dawrana said:

In the centre of the photograph (as you'd expect), we have the new Squadron Commander (#14 Raleigh), together with his team

Odd that he's letting someone else stand in front of him - excuse my ignorance but was Burch superior to him?

Just a quick update of the photos to include Officer 14.

(No new IP was created in producing the above and all image rights remain with the current owner).

Cheers,
Peter

[PRC]

27 minutes ago, dawrana said:

Pretty much everyone else in the photograph has been identified by name. #8 is certainly Dawes.

On 07/02/2023 at 12:37, dawrana said:

I do have slightly better quality crops for four of the individuals. Unfortunately, I only have these four, at the moment.

Lawrence is #3, Herbert #6, Becke #8, Dawes #19.

So if Becke isn't #8 anymore, is he one of the others or not present at all?

Cheers,
Peter

[dawrana]

Sorry, PRC, I thought I'd corrected my earlier post. #8 is Becke. Dawes is #19.