25 squadron August 1918

[malcolm rayment]

Hi all my grandad went through from 1914 to April 1918 i the army then came back to uk and trained to go in the RFC returning to France in August 1918 with 25 squadron staying with them until late 1919 serving in Cologne Germany.I have a few pictures but would like more information.

LT H J Rayment

[LDT006]

Welcome to the forum, a quick reply:
His medal card can be found on Ancestry here.

This site has a number of entries for him: http://airhistory.org.uk/rfc/people_index.html

Hope this helps,

Luc.

[malcolm rayment]

thanks

[hmsk212]

Hi

 

Here is a link to his Casualty Form :-  Casualty Forms - Form

 

Steve

Edited 11 February , 2023 by hmsk212

[josquin]

Malcolm,

You may know much of this information, but I will summarize what I found from Henry John Rayment's RAF Casualty Form, RAF Officer's Service Record

(in the AIR 76 at the National Archives, Kew), Medal Index Card (WO 372 series at the National Archives), and birth registration and census records.

He also has an Army Officer Service Record (WO 339 series at the National Archives), but I could not access this because it is not yet digitized.

While his service records list his birthdate as 20 September 1895, the birth registration confirms that he was born on 20 September 1897 (the birth

was registered at Newmarket, Cambridgeshire during the 4th Quarter of 1897).  Census records confirm that his birthplace was Wicken, Cambridgeshire,

that the family residence was Cottenham, Cambridgeshire (confirmed by the RAF Casualty Form and by the census returns), and that his parents were

John & Mary Ann (Bishop) Rayment, and that Henry had 3 brothers and a sister.  He served as a 2nd Lieutenant with the Norfolk Regiment and the

1/7 Battalion of the Liverpool Regiment (the WO 339 record is necessary for further information about his infantry service; a copy can be ordered from

the National Archives for a fee).  He was accepted by the Royal Air Force as an Observer on Probation, in France on 20 May 1918, was sent to Home

Establishment for training on 25 May 1918, re-embarked to France on 2 October 1918, was attached to No. 1 Aircraft Supply Depot on 2 October, and

was posted to 25 Squadron as an Observer on 5 October 1918.  He served with 25 Squadron until 13 July 1919, was posted to Home Establishment

on 17 July 1919, and was placed on the Unemployed List on 22 July 1919.  He had been appointed a 2nd Lieutenant in the R.A.F. on 30 September

1918, a Lieutenant on 27 December 1918, and was listed as a "2nd Lieutenant Observer Officer" in the Air Force List dated 3 February 1919.  He

married Annie May Stubbings at Chesterton, Cambridgeshire, in 1923 (late in the year).  A Henry J. Rayment died in 1962, in Essex, at the age of 64,

but this may not be the same man.  I hope this was helpful.

Josquin

[josquin]

Additional notes from the London Gazette:

Henry John Rayment, Cadet commissioned as Temporary 2nd Lieutenant with the Norfolk Regiment, dated 27 June 1917 (London Gazette Supplement 30189,

page 7301, 18 July 1917).

Henry John Rayment, to be Clerk, Special Class, with Ministry of Labour (London Gazette Supplement 34178, page 4448, 9 July 1935).

Josquin

[malcolm rayment]

Thank you so much for this information I have loads of paper work my father gave me from my grandad whom i never met.

 

[malcolm rayment]

I have his diaries from when he was in the Kings 1/7 Liverpool regiment where he sent in the casulties with serial numbers and names also a drawing and information from Windy corner in France April 1918 before he came back to the UK to train for the RFC gunnery program,Thasnk you so much for this information also have loads of his pics of ww1 planes hev took,

[malcolm rayment]

Yes this was my grandad thank you again regards malcolm

 

[PRC]

14 hours ago, josquin said:

Malcolm,

You may know much of this information, but I will summarize what I found from Henry John Rayment's RAF Casualty Form, RAF Officer's Service Record

(in the AIR 76 at the National Archives, Kew), Medal Index Card (WO 372 series at the National Archives), and birth registration and census records.

He also has an Army Officer Service Record (WO 339 series at the National Archives), but I could not access this because it is not yet digitized.

While his service records list his birthdate as 20 September 1895, the birth registration confirms that he was born on 20 September 1897 (the birth

was registered at Newmarket, Cambridgeshire during the 4th Quarter of 1897).  Census records confirm that his birthplace was Wicken, Cambridgeshire,

that the family residence was Cottenham, Cambridgeshire (confirmed by the RAF Casualty Form and by the census returns), and that his parents were

John & Mary Ann (Bishop) Rayment, and that Henry had 3 brothers and a sister.  He served as a 2nd Lieutenant with the Norfolk Regiment and the

1/7 Battalion of the Liverpool Regiment (the WO 339 record is necessary for further information about his infantry service; a copy can be ordered from

the National Archives for a fee).  He was accepted by the Royal Air Force as an Observer on Probation, in France on 20 May 1918, was sent to Home

Establishment for training on 25 May 1918, re-embarked to France on 2 October 1918, was attached to No. 1 Aircraft Supply Depot on 2 October, and

was posted to 25 Squadron as an Observer on 5 October 1918.  He served with 25 Squadron until 13 July 1919, was posted to Home Establishment

on 17 July 1919, and was placed on the Unemployed List on 22 July 1919.  He had been appointed a 2nd Lieutenant in the R.A.F. on 30 September

1918, a Lieutenant on 27 December 1918, and was listed as a "2nd Lieutenant Observer Officer" in the Air Force List dated 3 February 1919.  He

married Annie May Stubbings at Chesterton, Cambridgeshire, in 1923 (late in the year).  A Henry J. Rayment died in 1962, in Essex, at the age of 64,

but this may not be the same man.  I hope this was helpful.

Josquin

Very helpful for me from the post-Norfolk Regiment side of things

Just to add a few bits from his pre-RAF career.

Initially served with the Suffolk Regiment, regimental service number 15960. His contemporaries seemed to have joined the 11th Battalion, perhap not surprisingly as they were known as the Cambridgeshire Battalion. The 11th Battalion didn't land in France until the 9th January 1916, so probably explain why his Medal Index Card doesn't show a date of entry. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/suffolk-regiment/

If he was serving with them then he would have returned to the UK in very early 1917 to start an 18 week course as an Officer Cadet. Successfully completing that he was released from his enlistment on the 26th June 1917, (date shown on the MiC), in order to take up his commission on the 27th June 1917 (London Gazette 18th July 1917, page 7301) https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30189/supplement/7301

Same entry also has a Morton Curtis commissioned in the Norfolk Regiment.

He was posted onto the establishment of the Regular Army Battalions of the Norfolk Regiment. The January 1918 British Army Monthly List shows him, Morton Curtis, and a F. H. Kelf, all Second Lieutenants with the same seniority date as attached 1/8 Bn Liverpool Regiment. (Column 987b, just below half-way down). https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123140481

As both the 1/7th and the 1/8th were in the same Brigade until the end of January 1918 there may simply have been some re-balancing of officers between the two battalions, or the clerks compiling the army list may have made a mistake .

Would be great to confirm which Kings Battalion Henry Rayment was with from his diaries.

Cheers,
Peter

[malcolm rayment]

hi Peter am away at present but when home gladely post as much information that i can as this has been so helpful for me as did not know where to look thanks to every one. Have loads of pics from 25 squadron but loads of information about soldiers inn 1/7 and 1/8 KLR my grandad had 

[malcolm rayment]

few pics i have on phone gladely post more when home

[malcolm rayment]

Hi Peter have these if helpful as I said am away from home at momment 

thanks Malcolm Rayment

[PRC]

So definately 11th Suffolks when he originally signed up

There used to be a great site dedicated to that Battalion which also used to be my go to for other units in the same Brigade. Unfortunately, and no doubt to preserve it, it's been swallowed up into a Cambridge History History site and is therefore not so easy to navigate. https://great-war.ccan.co.uk/content/category/categories/cambridgeshirepalsbattalion/the-soldiers

And 11 Officer Cadet Battalion was based at Pirbright according to the Long, Long Trail. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/training-to-be-a-soldier/officer-training-in-the-british-army-of-1914-1918/

Interesting that he had a relatively short course when the standard was 18 weeks and he was commissioned before the course had even ended.

Just in case you don't already have them, the War Diaries for the 11th Suffolks, 1/7th Kings and 1/8th Kings can currently be downloaded for free from the UK National Archive. You do need to sign in with your account, but if you don't have one, even that can be set up as part of placing your first order. Just click on "sign in" on any page of the National Archive Catalogue  and follow the instructions - no financial details are requested.

The specific pages of the catalogue are:

11th Suffolks, January 1916 to May 1918. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353897

1/7th Kings Liverpool, January 1916 to May 1919. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354887

1/8th Kings Liverpool, February 1918 to May 1919. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355019

As a 2nd Lieutenant he has a slightly higher chance of receiving a mention than he would as an other rank, so the diaries are of more use in understanding where they were and what they were up to.

Thanks for posting extracts from his Army Book - very, very much appreciated - and a very belated welcome to the forum

Cheers,
Peter

[malcolm rayment]

Thanks Peer gladely share more when home

[josquin]

Malcolm,

I am adding some background for 25 Squadron in 1918.  The squadron's primary role throughout 1918 was to carry out long-range, high-altitude

photographic reconnaissance flights behind the German lines--photographing artillery batteries/emplacements, aerodromes, railroad centers and

rail lines, troop positions and movements, and similar military intelligence objectives.  Since the squadron's task was to take and return with the

photographs, the squadron's policy was to refrain from attacking enemy aeroplanes.  Combat with German aeroplanes was defensive; accordingly,

the squadron did not shoot down a large number of their adversaries.  Based at Ruisseauville aerodrome throughout 1918, the squadron moved to

La Brayelle, near Douai, on 27 October 1918, then relocated a month later to Maubeuge, was sent to Germany in May 1919 with the Occupation Force,

and was posted to South Carlton, Lincolnshire, on 6 September 1919.  The squadron flew the De Havilland (DH) 4 two-seater, single engine aeroplane,

considered by many to be the best light bomber and reconnaissance aeroplane of the war.  The DH4 was well-liked by its crews for its power, speed

and manoeverability.  It was armed with a single, forward-firing Vickers machine gun operated by the pilot and twin Lewis machine guns on a ring mount

operated by the observer.

While the squadron flew daily photo recon flights throughout 1917 and 1918, I will list some of the incidents occurring whilst your grandfather was

posted to the squadron (for each day, the pilot is listed first, then the observer):

-3 October 1918:  DH4 shot down during recon, at Maubeuge

-4 October 1918:  DH4 shot down during recon, at Maubeuge

-7 October 1918:  DH4 forced to land at Hangard Wood (behind British lines) after damage by enemy fire during recon to Renais (2Lt Francis William Seed,

posted to 25 Sq. 17 August 1918 & 2Lt Horace Cecil Shires, posted to 25 Sq. 8 August 1918)

-14 October 1918:  DH4 force landed at Foret de Mormal after radiator shot through during photo recon (Lt Lionel Lifford Kay Straw, posted to 25 Sq.

29 March 1918 & 2Lt John Hadley Skidmore [7th Bn. Shropshire Light Infantry 2Lt & RAF] posted to 25 Sq. 21 July 1918)

-30 October 1918:  enemy aircrat destroyed but the DH4 was shot through during photo recon a Maubeuge, crew returned OK (2Lt Douglas Stuart Cramb,

posted to 49 Sq. 23 April 1918 & posted to 25 Sq. 29 September 1918 & 2Lt Thomas Alfred Chilcott, posted 25 Sq. 19 August 1918)

-31 October 1918:  the squadron history records that "a large amount of photographic work was carried out by 25 Squadron, 237 photographs being taken

of areas urgently required."  The squadron was tasked with photographing German aerodromes during the month of October, 1918.

-1 November 1918:  enemy aeroplane destroyed; (Capt. Charles Edward Hamilton Allen, posted 25 Sq. in February or March, 1918 & Sgt Arthur Herbert Mabey

[Royal Naval Air Service F27855 Gunlayer & RAF 227855 Sgt/Aerial Gunner; joined RNAS 28 March 1917] no date for 25 Sq. posting)

-1 November 1918:  DH4 shot down during photo recon at Avesnes, crew taken prisoner (2Lt Richard Gray Dobeson, posted 25 Sq. 22 April 1918,

repatriated 5 December 1918 & 2Lt Frederick George Mills, posted 25 Sq. 27 June 1918, repatriated 29 December 1918)

-4 November 1918:  DH4 crew destroyed an Albatros C two-seater west of Maubeuge during photo recon, but then force landed near Foret de Vicoigne

due to engine failure, crew OK (Lt John Henry Latchford, posted 25 Sq. 8 June 1918 & Lt Harry Lawton Howard Tate [5th Bn. Middlesex Regiment 2Lt & RAF Lt]

posted 25 Sq. 8 October 1918)

-4 November 1918:  DH4 shot down during photo recon in Maisiers-Maubeuge area, crew killed (Lt Lionel Lifford Kay Straw & 2Lt Pybus Cartwright

[Yorkshire Light Infantry 19231 Acting Corporal & RAF 2Lt] posted 25 Sq 4 October 1918

-9 November 1918:  the squadron history states that the squadron's last combat involved a DH4 crew engaging 7 Fokker scouts at an altitude of

17,000 ft., shooting down 2 of their opponents and scattering the rest (2Lt Francis William Seed & 2Lt Donald Edgar Buckland [20th Bn. London Regiment 2Lt &

RAF 2Lt] posted 25 Sq. 3 October 1918)

Your grandfather was involved in an aeroplane accident a month after the war.  On 21 December 1918, DH4 F6076 was flying at very low altitude and

sideslipped into the ground during a practice flight at the aerodrome (Lt Carey Addenbrooke & 2Lt Henry John Rayment, both OK).

Josquin

 

;

[malcolm rayment]

Thank you so much Josquin  for this information am new to looking for this and has been so helpful to our familly as i was told my grandad would not talk about the great war but have loads of pics to share,

malcolm

glad to share more as this is history for every one thanks again 

[malcolm rayment]

river Sombre Maugbergue

[Cy Corbett Chronicles]

Thanks for posting these pics. My father trained on the Curtiss JN-4D in Texas, earning his wings in August 1918. He was on a train East for deployment when the Armistice was declared. The trainer planes, it seems, were far less substantial then the one flown in the UK and France.

[josquin]

Malcolm,

Thank you for posting the photographs.  Their authenticity helps to recapture the era, and they are as informative as they are interesting.

Josquin

[FionaBam]

On 13/02/2023 at 09:23, malcolm rayment said:

Thank you so much Josquin  for this information am new to looking for this and has been so helpful to our familly as i was told my grandad would not talk about the great war but have loads of pics to share,

malcolm

glad to share more as this is history for every one thanks again 

Thank you for sharing Malcolm. What great photos and so much history preserved in them.

Was it your grandfathers special interest to take photos? It takes time and energy and effort and  he benefited us enormously for sure.

My grandfather also frequently flew the DH4 in RNAS 2 Squadron over Flanders Dec 1917 to  March 1918 when he amazingly  survived a crash after being shot down  by enemy ground fire. I believe the DH4 was a well balanced plane that in my grandfathers case certainly enabled him to survive the crash . Good to see these photos of the DH4

Thanks again 

[malcolm rayment]

Glad to post have loads of pics my grandad took if anyones interested how do you keep copy right

On 18/02/2023 at 21:43, Cy Corbett Chronicles said:

Thanks for posting these pics. My father trained on the Curtiss JN-4D in Texas, earning his wings in August 1918. He was on a train East for deployment when the Armistice was declared. The trainer planes, it seems, were far less substantial then the one flown in the UK and France.

Glad to post have loads of pics my grandad took if anyones interested how do you keep copy right

[malcolm rayment]

I was told the man and woman was the king and queen of Belgium if anyone can verify 

 

[malcolm rayment]

my grandad and presumable 25 squadron pals

 

[malcolm rayment]