3 Squadron at Lark Hill in 1912

[dawrana]

This photograph is iconic. 3rd Squadron RFC, at Lark Hill in 1913. It readily pops up in response to an internet search.

I apologise, if my question has been asked before, but is there definitive identification of those eight present in the group, please? I can make a good guess at some of them, but I would like to be sure. Further source references (internet, books, museums) will be very much appreciated. Thank you very much.

[Moonraker]

 

Very interesting photo, dawrana, and welcome to the GWF.  Is the photo a postcard, do you know - or perhaps a photo reproduced in a magazine? I have many postcards published by Bennett, but none with such a neatly-presented caption - and none of officers posed as above

I'm no good at IDing people in photographs, and I hope you won't mind me posting another group photo of No 3 Squadron:

 

Mostly Other Ranks, but I wonder if the officer in the centre, third row, looking to his right, is the same as the second or third officer on the right in your photo.

I can see nothing to help your quest in Flying with the Larks and Wings over Wiltshire.

The papers of Wing Commander T E Guttery are held by the Imperial War Museum (78/27/1). He served with No 3 Squadron when it was "out-stationed" at Bulford but flew planes from Lark Hill in 1912–13. There is much about the very early aircraft and flying techniques, but little of local interest. He mentions the men initially using horse transport to get to Lark Hill, but then they drove in two Mercedes, one belonging to (the late) Captain Loraine. In Spring 1913 the squadron moved to a camping-site at Lark Hill, were fed by civilian contractors in a marquee and had other marquees for recreation. The officers and some men had camp beds, other men had to make do with bed boards. Guttery describes the Military Aeroplane Competition and the Netheravon concentration camp.

 

[hmsk212]

I have a Photo of the members of 3 Sqd RFC Sergeants Mess  taken in 1912. It also appears to be taken in front of the same aircraft & hanger as the original Officer photo posted by Dawrana

 

 

 I have identified them as :-

 

69 Reuben Spencer   132 Thomas Bullen   14 Frank Edwards  3 John Ramsay  26 Frank Ridd   107 William Robert Bruce   120 William Sharp ( Sharpe spelt without an e )

 

8 Frederick Henry Unwin   25 Herbert Goodchild   142 Edward McEvoy   34 Lawrence Little  & 248 Henry Woods.

 

Steve

[Neill Gilhooley]

Here's some photographs of the Air Battalion 

 

[busterfield]

Three's company an illustrated history of No. 3 (Fighter) squadron RAF written by Jack Long, pen and sword, has many names from that era.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Threes-Company-Illustrated-History-Squadron-ebook/dp/B00L6Z9ENM

Edited 3 February , 2023 by busterfield
link to book

[Colin Huston]

Andrew, it is as you say quite a well known photograph taken at Larkhill, but in our Great War Aviation files this photograph, as marked by Robert Brooke-Popham, shows the personnel as, from left, GWP Dawes, VHN Wadham, AG Fox, W Lawrence, HRM Brooke-Popham, DG Connor, ? Ashton, CRW Allen. I hope this helps.

[Colin Huston]

Thanks to Moonraker It has been interesting to compare the seated row in his 3 Squadron large group picture with those named above as Wadham, Lawrence, Fox, Ashton, Dawes, Connor, Brooke-Popham and Allen,  A check through the RAeC Trust's list for Ashton has indicated that he was #201 Alexander Earnest Burchardt-Ashton, (4 Dragoon Guards).  

[Moonraker]

Glad to have helped, Colin. As I admitted in my post, I'm useless at IDing. Were you able to put any names to the faces in my photo?

[Colin Huston]

Thanks to Moonraker It has been interesting to compare the seated row in his 3 Squadron large group picture with those named above as Wadham, Lawrence, Fox, Ashton, Dawes, Connor, Brooke-Popham and Allen,  A check through the RAeC Trust's list for Ashton has indicated that he was #201 Alexander Earnest Burchardt-Ashton, (4 Dragoon Guards).  

Sorry if this wasn't clear Moonraker, but third row down and then fourth in from the left the eight seated officers are, VHN Wadham, W Lawrence, AG Fox, AE Ashton, GWP Dawes, DG Connor, then Maj Brooke-Popham who is facing right, and CRW Allen in greatcoat. It looks like Sgt E McEvoy standing directly behind Capt Allen, but that's as far as my identification has got with this large group, 

[Moonraker]

Colin, thanks for that, and well done for IDing so many.

I don't want to divert from the original post, though the ensuing comments are complementing one another, but any thoughts on the man in a darker uniform on the man on the extreme right of my postcard? (Actually, not so much on the man himself, but why his uniform is darker.)

Edited 5 February , 2023 by Moonraker

[FROGSMILE]

On 03/02/2023 at 17:51, Colin Huston said:

Andrew, it is as you say quite a well known photograph taken at Larkhill, but in our Great War Aviation files this photograph, as marked by Robert Brooke-Popham, shows the personnel as, from left, GWP Dawes, VHN Wadham, AG Fox, W Lawrence, HRM Brooke-Popham, DG Connor, ? Ashton, CRW Allen. I hope this helps.

Cap badges left to right:

1. Royal Berkshire Regiment.

2. King’s Royal Rifle Corps.

3. Royal Engineers.

4. Essex Regiment (?).

5. Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry.

6.  Royal Artillery or RFC (?).

7.  Royal Sussex Regiment (?).

8.  Leinster Regiment.

Confirmation by others welcomed please.

[dawrana]

Me again.

I have double-checked for consistency with their Av Certs. Agree with all bar #2, #7, and #8.

#2 Wadham, V H N (from his obit) 1st Hampshire Regiment

#7 If Ashton is Burchardt-Ashton, A E, then I venture 4th Dragoon Guards

#8 If Allen is Allen, C R W, then I offer the Welch Regiment.

Back to Frogsmile (or others) for a "best of three"?

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, dawrana said:

Me again.

I have double-checked for consistency with their Av Certs. Agree with all bar #2, #7, and #8.

#2 Wadham, V H N (from his obit) 1st Hampshire Regiment

#7 If Ashton is Burchardt-Ashton, A E, then I venture 4th Dragoon Guards

#8 If Allen is Allen, C R W, then I offer the Welch Regiment.

Back to Frogsmile (or others) for a "best of three"?

If regular army prewar then #2 is categorically KRRC.  Distinctive rope boss badge combined with black buttons confirms.

For #7 and #8 I defer to you, especially the latter, as three feathers badges can be very similar.  I’m looking on a phone screen only and those last two were the most difficult, so hence the question marks…

[dawrana]

We're both correct! Phew!

The problem was that there is no regimental affiliation noted on his Av Cert record, so I went to his obit, which was 1915, and that referred to the Hampshire Regiment. However, the full answer is that he was 5th battalion KRRC pre-war.

The longer answer can be found at "Capt Wadham RFC" under GWF Air personnel, posted by Stebie9173 on 9 July 2006.

Bit inconsiderate of him to have two regimental affiliations!

RIP

[FROGSMILE]

13 hours ago, dawrana said:

We're both correct! Phew!

The problem was that there is no regimental affiliation noted on his Av Cert record, so I went to his obit, which was 1915, and that referred to the Hampshire Regiment. However, the full answer is that he was 5th battalion KRRC pre-war.

The longer answer can be found at "Capt Wadham RFC" under GWF Air personnel, posted by Stebie9173 on 9 July 2006.

Bit inconsiderate of him to have two regimental affiliations!

RIP

5th KRRC after 1908 were a Special Reserve Battalion, which ostensibly implies that he was a Special Reserve officer, so more clarification is needed regarding his initial commissioning.

However, it’s also not impossible that he was originally posted after initial commissioning as a regular officer to one of the four regular battalions (1st to 4th), but then when attached to the RFC for flying duties, moved nominally to be on the 5th Battalion’s books for administration, which was a normal protocol for detached regimental officers.  It was merely a paper transaction to keep tabs on those not serving actively with their own regiment.

Edited 8 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Neill Gilhooley]

3. Alan Geoffrey Fox was indeed Royal Engineers

[busterfield]

From a book , date of death out by one month. It may help.

 

[Moonraker]

On 05/02/2023 at 17:31, Colin Huston said:

Sorry if this wasn't clear Moonraker, but third row down and then fourth in from the left the eight seated officers are, VHN Wadham, W Lawrence, AG Fox, AE Ashton, GWP Dawes, DG Connor, then Maj Brooke-Popham who is facing right, and CRW Allen in greatcoat. It looks like Sgt E McEvoy standing directly behind Capt Allen, but that's as far as my identification has got with this large group, 

Thanks for that, Colin.

In my photo, the man with the jaunty cap on the left of the greatcoated Allen is John Ramsey, perhaps a warrant officer, who is identified in HMSK212's photo of the Sergeant's mess.

My photo and dawrana's may have been taken on the same occasion, as the ways that the officers are wearing their uniforms appear very similar, and both were published by Bennett.

EDIT: And I would suggest that it's Spencer above Fox and Ashton, Ridd above Brooke-Popham and Goodchild on Ridd's left.

Edited 9 February , 2023 by Moonraker

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, busterfield said:

From a book , date of death out by one month. It may help.

 

It does help and confirms he was a ‘Special Reservist’ and so it was in that capacity that he appeared in the early photo with black buttons and rope boss cap badge.  When the war began he transferred from the KRRC to the Hampshire Regiment, but it seems unlikely that he ever served with them at regimental duty.  The fact that his status at death was still declared as Hampshire Regiment and Royal Flying Corps, implies that he was still seconded to and had not fully transferred to, the RFC.  That might well have had something to do with his Reservist status.

Edited 9 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Moonraker]

I've just acquired the attached photo and an hour ago was opening a new thread to ask what it represented. Halfway through, I realised that it was the badge of No 3 Squadron when based at Lark Hill.

The original badge. (Scroll down a little.)

[evecolorado]

On 02/02/2023 at 14:48, hmsk212 said:

I have a Photo of the members of 3 Sqd RFC Sergeants Mess  taken in 1912. It also appears to be taken in front of the same aircraft & hanger as the original Officer photo posted by Dawrana

 

 

 I have identified them as :-

 

69 Reuben Spencer   132 Thomas Bullen   14 Frank Edwards  3 John Ramsay  26 Frank Ridd   107 William Robert Bruce   120 William Sharp ( Sharpe spelt without an e )

 

8 Frederick Henry Unwin   25 Herbert Goodchild   142 Edward McEvoy   34 Lawrence Little  & 248 Henry Woods.

 

Steve

I'd like to see these photos. I'm getting:

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<HostId>Tm91SrTUS15GR3NjErRKtwCxQw6fQA9wLc404ai+jf3fK+clLsH9k4YTjk9ddvVKbLGPjeJpK30=</HostId>

</Error>

 

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when I try. My grandfather was 107 William Robert Bruce and I haven't seen this photo. 

Eve

[hmsk212]

Hi Eve,

I will put them back up.  Steve

Edited Friday at 05:53 by hmsk212

[DavidOwen]

Welcome to the forum Eve

The images in the original posts have been restored.

[evecolorado]

13 hours ago, hmsk212 said:

Hi Eve,

I will put them back up.  Steve

*******

Thank you so much for doing this, Steve. It's such a heartwarming feeling seeing a picture I've not seen before. He died eight years before I was born, so never met him, but feel I know him from reading the diary he kept the first couple of years of WWI. A lot of it was what he'd worked on and what was going on with the war, but there were some bits, like the last sentence below, that showed his sense of humor (the word in square brackets I couldn't quite make out and am guessing at): 

Tues Nov. 24. Mild & humid weather, thaw & plenty of slush & mud. Sent German machine to ST. OMER. Usual routine of work. Fair amount of flying.

I was sitting in lorry writing diary when a rifle shot came through hitting [emery] wheel turning off and catching me slightly under the ear and a splinter cut my left hand; the bullet missed St Maj Parker by inches passing between his head and arm before it came into the lorry. What had happened was that one of the Guard when unloading after relief, fired after closing the bolt of his rifle on what he thought was an empty barrel. The bullet then went on its journey nearly making record by killing 2 WOs with one shot.

Eve

 

12 hours ago, DavidOwen said:

Welcome to the forum Eve

The images in the original posts have been restored.

Thank you. I'm enjoying it and will be spending a lot of time, for a while, exploring and reading.

[hmsk212]

Hi Eve,

 

I also think that W R Bruce is standing in front of the propellor in the photograph on the second post of this thread.

Steve