Help with two relatives please

[priches]

Hi I have service records of 2 relatives (from Grimsby)that appear to have both been Royal Naval Reservists in WW1.

I just wondered if anyone would know if any photos were taken of them during their service and location of such.I have an unknown sailor and lady photo but he is in sailor uniform and I am guessing they did not have a sailors uniform? If that is the case then he could be dismissed as being one of the brothers.

The attached record is for George Simmons b 1883 Sotterley Suffolk. His brother Daniel Simmons b 1881 Sotterley also served with them. Any info or help would be gratefully received. TIAGeorge-Simmons-b1883-Reserve-record.pdf

[Matlock1418]

51 minutes ago, priches said:

Hi I have service records of 2 relatives (from Grimsby)that appear to have both been Royal Naval Reservists in WW1.

I just wondered if anyone would know if any photos were taken of them during their service and location of such.I have an unknown sailor and lady photo but he is in sailor uniform and I am guessing they did not have a sailors uniform? If that is the case then he could be dismissed as being one of the brothers.

Welcome to GWF.

Whilst we wait for a proper expert to come along ...

As a predominantly Army bod - I know they were RNR, but just wondering why you think they didn't have naval uniforms ??

As for photos, such as the above, these would have been privately-commissioned and then, for various reasons, commonly published in local newspapers [potentially cropped to head and shoulders] and named.  You could try British Newspaper Archive [also available via Find My Past I believe]

Good luck.

M

Edited 28 January , 2023 by Matlock1418

[priches]

Thank you for your response. As regards to the uniform if the reservists did not have a uniform or not like this then it cannot be of either brother who were both reservists. Bottom line is I am trying to name both the man and woman in this photo and looking for clues however small. Fingers crossed I eventually succeed. Regards p

[KizmeRD]

Welcome to the forum, but please drop the notion that men enlisted in the RNR didn’t get issued with uniforms - they did!

So the photo is more than likely to be one or other of the Simmons boys.

George Simmons served on the net drifter ‘Lyre Bird’.

According to Dittmar & Colledge…
LYRE BIRD (ex-TWENTY-THREE), hired drifter, Adty No 2149. Built 1902, 80grt, Buckie-reg BCK.174. Armament: 1-6pdr. In service 5.15-1920 as net vessel.

MB

Edited 29 January , 2023 by KizmeRD

[horatio2]

1 hour ago, priches said:

I have service records of 2 relatives (from Grimsby)that appear to have both been Royal Naval Reservists in WW1.

More accurately, they were both ratings in the Royal Naval Reserve: Daniel,  a Seaman RNR from April 1905 demobilised in 1919 and then until his death in 1923; George, a DeckHand RNR, served in a net layer drifter from May 1915 until demob (and discharge from the RNR) in May 1919.

When mobilised for WW1 and for any formal RNR training periods in peacetime thhey wiwould have worn normal naval uniform. Daniel's record shows that pre-war he was employed as a fisherman (and RNR rating from 1905) and he would have dressed for that trade. If taken when mobilised during WW1, the photo could be of either man. The two men were born in March 1883 (George) and March 1882 (Daniel) so of similar age. Interestingly their mothers are differently noted as Emma (for George) and Sarah (for Daniel).

George claimed his WW1 medal trio in person but Daniel's two medals (no 1914-15 Star) were clasimed by and issued to his father,

Edited 28 January , 2023 by horatio2

[priches]

Many thanks for your information. Back to the drawing board and try to find out if it is in fact a Simmonds or possibly 'someone else'. p

 

[priches]

3 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

More accurately, they were both ratings in the Royal Naval Reserve: Daniel,  a Seaman RNR from April 1905 demobilised in 1919 and then until his death in 1923; George, a DeckHand RNR, served in a net layer drifter from May 1915 until demob (and discharge from the RNR) in May 1919.

When mobilised for WW1 and for any formal RNR training periods in peacetime thhey wiwould have worn normal naval uniform. Daniel's record shows that pre-war he was employed as a fisherman (and RNR rating from 1905) and he would have dressed for that trade. If taken when mobilised during WW1, the photo could be of either man. The two men were born in March 1883 (George) and March 1882 (Daniel) so of similar age. Interestingly their mothers are differently noted as Emma (for George) and Sarah (for Daniel).

George claimed his WW1 medal trio in person but Daniel's two medals (no 1914-15 Star) were clasimed by and issued to his father,

 

[horatio2]

The drifter LYRE BIRD/2149 was initially based at Poole on HMS WHITE OAK 17/5/15;  later based at Milford Haven on HMS SABRINA 3/9/15 and HMS IDAHO 14/8/16;  finally based at Queenstown, Ireland, on HMS COLLEEN 17/7/17.

[priches]

WOW amazing detail. Emma Sarah ( mainly called Sarah) Simmons was their mother and Harry Simmonds. Unfortunately Daniel was a 'regular thief' and spent some time in prison. He was eventually found dead on the beach at Humberstone-he had a troubled life. That maybe why the father claimed them. Thank you so much for your answer.

 

2 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

The drifter LYRE BIRD/2149 was initially based at Poole on HMS WHITE OAK 17/5/15;  later based at Milford Haven on HMS SABRINA 3/9/15 and HMS IDAHO 14/8/16;  finally based at Queenstown, Ireland, on HMS COLLEEN 17/7/17.

Thank you for the extra detail.

 

[KizmeRD]

Daniel went on the run (deserted) 26.10.16 when serving on the armed merchant cruiser HMS OTRANTO whilst at Esquimalt (Canada) and received 90 day imprisonment after being returned.

His record shows date of death 20.3.23.

MB

[PRC]

Hi @priches and welcome to the forum

1 hour ago, priches said:

He was eventually found dead on the beach at Humberstone-he had a troubled life.

I've no doubt you're aware this would have led to a coroners inquest and looks like it was quite widely reported. The fuller articles may potentially touch on his Great War service. Here just a sample of the snapshots that turn up - fuller articles available via subsciption. (The usually bad standard of machine transcription doesn't truely reflect what is there!).

Image courtesy of FindMyPast.

The same sources will be available via the British Newspaper Archive, (first three pages free when you first sign up, then pay to view but if you live in the UK then it is also very likely you can access your account for free in your local public library on one of their PC's), or via the appropriate subscription level with Ancestry \ FindMyPast.

Neither of them appear to be wearing rings, so not married or even formally engaged. Given the pose I did wonder if they might be brother and sister.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 28 January , 2023 by PRC
Typo

[priches]

3 minutes ago, PRC said:

Hi @priches and welcome to the forum

I've no doubt you're aware this would have led to a coroners inquest and looks like it was quite widely reported. The fuller articles may potentially touch on his Great War service. Here just a sample of the snapshots that turn up - fuller articles available via subsciption. (The usually bad standard of machine transcription does truely reflect what is there!).

Image courtesy of FindMyPast.

The same sources will be available via the British Newspaper Archive, (first three pages free when you first sign up, then pay to view but if you live in the UK then it is also very likely you can access your account for free in your local public library on one of their PC's), or via the appropriate subscription level with Ancestry \ FindMyPast.

Neither of them appear to be wearing rings, so not married or even formally engaged. Given the pose I did wonder if they might be brother and sister.

Cheers,
Peter

 

31 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Daniel went on the run (deserted) 26.10.16 when serving on the armed merchant cruiser HMS OTRANTO whilst at Esquimalt (Canada) and received 90 day imprisonment after being returned.

His record shows date of death 20.3.23.

MB

Did not know that, another 'crime' to add to the list! Thank you once again.

 

Just now, priches said:

 

Did not know that, another 'crime' to add to the list! Thank you once again.

 

 

[Matlock1418]

Glad some naval experts turned up, above, to confirm my suspiscion that uniforms were provided./worn by RNR.

And some other great stuff.

1 hour ago, priches said:

Simmonds

??? Carefull! - A typo I think probable, but used a couple of times by you - or did they also go by Simmonds?

M

Edited 28 January , 2023 by Matlock1418

[priches]

1 minute ago, Matlock1418 said:

Glad some naval experts turned up, above, to confirm my suspiscion that uniforms were provided./worn by RNR.

And some other great stuff.

Carefull! - A typo I think probable - or did they also go by Simmonds?

M

I seem to have got muddled on trying to reply to all posts and now unable to reply to PRC. I did try to get coroners report but told they had not survived. However the Grimsby News 29/03/1923 may well expand on cause of death. Several years ago tried papers but did not locate this one. Will look at library on next visit. Interesting that you said maybe brother and sisiter as that has been muted but cannot be certain on that at the moment. His likely sister worked at Buckingham Palace for many, many years. So if man is Daniel, he spent time at one of the Queens's residence too! Apologies for navigation skills! Excellent responses, never cease to amaze me how knowledgeable members on these sites are. Thank you all, each answer taken on board.

Just now, priches said:

I seem to have got muddled on trying to reply to all posts and now unable to reply to PRC. I did try to get coroners report but told they had not survived. However the Grimsby News 29/03/1923 may well expand on cause of death. Several years ago tried papers but did not locate this one. Will look at library on next visit. Interesting that you said maybe brother and sisiter as that has been muted but cannot be certain on that at the moment. His likely sister worked at Buckingham Palace for many, many years. So if man is Daniel, he spent time at one of the Queens's residence too! Apologies for navigation skills! Excellent responses, never cease to amaze me how knowledgeable members on these sites are. Thank you all, each answer taken on board.

 

10 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Glad some naval experts turned up, above, to confirm my suspiscion that uniforms were provided./worn by RNR.

And some other great stuff.

Carefull! - A typo I think probable - or did they also go by Simmonds?

M

Daniel went by every variation of Simmons during his court appearances.

 

[Matlock1418]

11 hours ago, priches said:

Daniel went by every variation of Simmons during his court appearances.

 That did rather seem quike likely for Daniel - but you have also used for Harry, above.

Won't have made your research entirely straightforward I feel sure.

11 hours ago, priches said:

I seem to have got muddled on trying to reply to all posts and now unable to reply to PRC.

Just go back to each original post in turn and use the quote button from the bottom of there. There is a multi-quote button there too.

But I never use those as I usually go for a selected part(s) rather than the whole original post.

Instead, to make multiple quotes in a single reply-in-progress post = place your cursor in the desired place in the reply-in-progress and then highlight the required-to-be-quoted text from the other member's post using using your mouse and held left button. The required text should have turned blue highlighted and a quote selection option balloon will arrive next to it. Hit that option and the quote will jumpt into your reply-in-progress. Repeat as necessary adding your comment along the way or at the end.

You can select multi-quotes from several original postings should you wish.

Good luck. 

M

[priches]

9 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

 That did rather seem quike likely for Daniel - but you have also used for Harry, above.

Won't have made your research entirely straightforward I feel sure.

Just go back to each original post in turn and use the quote button from the bottom of there. There is a multi-quote button there too.

But I never use those as I usually go for a selected part(s) rather than the whole original post.

Instead, to make multiple quotes in a single reply-in-progress post = place your cursor in the desired place in the reply-in-progress and then highlight the required-to-be-quoted text from the other member's post using using your mouse and held left button. The required text should have turned blue highlighted and a quote selection option balloon will arrive next to it. Hit that option and the quote will jumpt into your reply-in-progress. Repeat as necessary adding your comment along the way or at the end.

You can select multi-quotes from several original postings should you wish.

Good luck. 

M

Thanks.

 

[priches]

On 28/01/2023 at 21:41, KizmeRD said:

Daniel went on the run (deserted) 26.10.16 when serving on the armed merchant cruiser HMS OTRANTO whilst at Esquimalt (Canada) and received 90 day imprisonment after being returned.

His record shows date of death 20.3.23.

MB

Would you have any idea of where he would have been imprisoned. Maybe another set of records at a prison in Canada or would he have served that in UK? TIA

 

[KizmeRD]

As I understand it, there were detention barracks in Esquimalt.

MB

 

[priches]

23 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

As I understand it, there were detention barracks in Esquimalt.

MB

 

Thank you.

[horatio2]

As an important naval base I would have expected there to be a naval detention barrcks. Dentention is also a more appropriate punishment for desertion. However, the following may explain why imprisonment was awarded in this case:-

KR & AI (1913) - "IMPRISONMENT AND DETENTION.

767. When to be awarded.- Detention is considered to be a more suitable punishment for naval offenders than imprisonment, and should be awarded in preference to the latter when the offender will be retained in the Service, unless he bas already undergone several sentences of detention without effect. Detention should not, however, be awarded in parts of the world where there are neither naval nor military detention establishments in which the offender can be confined.

OTRANTO's log has three entries for "Seaman SIMMONDS" on 3, 7 and 20 March 1916. More misbehaviour at ASydney by the look of things.     http://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-WW1-08-HMS_Otranto.htm

With "Indifferent" Ability and a poor conduct record, I expect OTRANTO was pleased to get rid of him behind bars for three months.

[rolt968]

Is there any information on the photo? (Written on the back, perhaps?)

(Incidentally HMS Otranto came to a sad end. https://wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?571)

RM

[horatio2]

22 minutes ago, priches said:

As I understand it, there were detention barracks in Esquimalt.

A Google of CFB Esquimalt notes "Built in 1904 of brick construction as the Detention Barracks for the Royal Garrison Artillery, it closed its detention doors and cells in 1958." Perhaps they were deemed unsuitable/unavailable for RN detainees in 1916.

[horatio2]

https://www.pc.gc.ca/apps/dfhd/page_fhbro_eng.aspx?id=4922  This Esquimalt dockyard building is desribed as a naval prison.

[priches]

1 hour ago, horatio2 said:

As an important naval base I would have expected there to be a naval detention barrcks. Dentention is also a more appropriate punishment for desertion. However, the following may explain why imprisonment was awarded in this case:-

KR & AI (1913) - "IMPRISONMENT AND DETENTION.

767. When to be awarded.- Detention is considered to be a more suitable punishment for naval offenders than imprisonment, and should be awarded in preference to the latter when the offender will be retained in the Service, unless he bas already undergone several sentences of detention without effect. Detention should not, however, be awarded in parts of the world where there are neither naval nor military detention establishments in which the offender can be confined.

OTRANTO's log has three entries for "Seaman SIMMONDS" on 3, 7 and 20 March 1916. More misbehaviour at ASydney by the look of things.     http://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-WW1-08-HMS_Otranto.htm

With "Indifferent" Ability and a poor conduct record, I expect OTRANTO was pleased to get rid of him behind bars for three months.

I am staggered the information you have gleaned for me. Grateful thanks. I need to type up and digest this fascinating info. I will look up the 1916 entries which I guess will be reached by following links on Naval History as above.

[priches]

12 minutes ago, priches said:

I am staggered the information you have gleaned for me. Grateful thanks. I need to type up and digest this fascinating info. I will look up the 1916 entries which I guess will be reached by following links on Naval History as above.- As hard as I try unable to locate what you found, maybe you have a special subscription? I would add his sister worked for about 34 years at the Palace, always amuses me they could be so different.