Collecting the fallen

[andrew pugh]

Hi 

Does anybody know if there are any records kept giving an designated area to search for bodies after the war. For example remains were collected from areas to the east and south of a certain cemetery. What areas were allocated  to a cemetery. The one that I am interested in is Lebucquiere Communal Cemetery Extension. Hope someone could advise.

Regards

Andy     

[Matlock1418]

Can't specifically answer your question(s) - but it might be a question(s) to pose of CWGC.

More generally ... 'Concentration' reburials were commonly relaid to rest in a cemetery open for such a purpose on a given date [meaning potentially one of several - more in early years and then reducing in number over time]

Increasingly it seems that later recoveries could potentially be reburied far from their location of finding as the local cemetery(ies) were gradually closed down to reburials.

This to me suggests that some reburials in a given cemetery may potentially be a long way from their origin and thus unassociated with a local area near a cemetery.

I thus [without specific knowledge] wouldn't be sure that any reburials in Lebucquiere Communal Cemetery Extension necessarily came from that locale and/or that any bodies found locally would have necessarily have been buried there.

Can you further share your specific interest?

M

Edited 20 January , 2023 by Matlock1418

[andrew pugh]

Hi M, thanks for replying

The reason I have asked this question is this I have been working on 3 casualties of the Kings Liverpool Regiment who are buried in Lebucquiere Communal Cemetery Extension. One is listed as an unknown Captain another is listed as an unknown Officer, and the third is listed as an unknown Sergeant of the Kings Liverpool Regiment. My research strongly suggests that they belonged to the 1st Battalion who were in action around Haplincourt and Lebucquiere on the 23rd/24th March 1918. I am sure the unknown Captain is Ernest Reginald Last and the unknown Officer is 2nd Lt Reginald Stuart Tarran and the unknown sergeant is Sergeant Arthur W Sissons. All belonging to the 1st Battalion.

An article was published by the Western Front Association in a magazine called the Bulletine 82  Oct/November 2008. The article was titled The Grave by the Roadside. The story was about 2 officers of the 1st Battalion Kings Liverpool Regiment who were killed on the same day 24th March 1918. The Officers were Lt Herbert Gordon Thorpe and 2nd Lt Reginald Stuart Tarran. They both fell not far from from each other Thorpe's body was found at 57c.O.4.d.8.8 and concentrated into Bancourt British Cemetery. The unknown Officer who I believe to be 2nd Lt Tarran is buried in Lebucquiere Communal Cemetery Extension. After Tarran was killed an enquiry was conducted by the regiment as to what had happened to 2nd Lt Tarran. His father insisted on this enquiry. One of the soldiers called as a witness stated that he saw 2nd Lt Tarran get one all to himself. What he meant was he was killed by a shell. Records show that Tarran was in C Coy who were wiped out by a German bombardment on the 24/03/1918. with only 8 other ranks surviving and no officers. I am pretty sure that this is why who I believe is 2nd Lt Tarran is listed as an unknown "Officer" because when found they could not distinguish the precise rank of officer it was probably due to the nature of the injuries.

If I am right and it is Tarran buried in Lebucquiere how come Thorpe is buried in Bancourt. when they were not too far away from each other when they were killed on the 24/03/1918.

Captain Last, 2nd Lt Tarran are the only 2 officers unaccounted for, and Sgt Sissons was the only sergeant belonging to the 1st Battalion killed on the 24/03/1918.

That's why I asked the question. Hope I have not bored you.

Kind Regards    

[jaykayu]

38 minutes ago, andrew pugh said:

If I am right and it is Tarran buried in Lebucquiere how come Thorpe is buried in Bancourt. when they were not too far away from each other when they were killed on the 24/03/1918.

Hi Andrew

Could the reason be that Last and Tarran were found at different times, and perhaps by different grave recovery units (GRU), who may have been taking bodies that they found to different nearby cemeteries? The concentration forms may have dates and details of the grave recovery units involved.

J

[Chesterboy]

what are the dates on the Concertration of Burial returns and what are the Labour Corps unit numbers 

as I feel they could have been found at different times.  With Lebucquiere could have closed and bancourt was still open to accept re burials when Thorpe was found. 
 

 

[LDT006]

6 hours ago, jaykayu said:

Could the reason be that Last and Tarran were found at different times, and perhaps by different grave recovery units (GRU), who may have been taking bodies that they found to different nearby cemeteries? The concentration forms may have dates and details of the grave recovery units involved.

I have a spreadsheet for all casualties found in my hometown with dates of recovery and burial location, a summary is below and shows that it can be complicated:

139 to Hooge Crater Cemetery from January 1919 till September 1919.
11 to Perth Cemetery (China Wall) in August 1919.
2 to Aeroplane Cemetery in September 1919.
19 to Duhallow A.D.S. Cemetery in September 1919.
219 to Dadizele New British Cemetery from October 1919 till March 1920.
14 to Vichte Military Cemetery from August 1920 till December 1920.
1 to Bedford House in October 1922.
223 from German cemeteries to Harlebeke New British Cemetery in 1924.
3 to Sanctuary Wood from February 1928 till March 1930. 
3 to Cement House Cemetery in 1956.
Total: 634 Commonwealth soldiers spread out over 10 different cemeteries, some are more than 20km away.

The above shows the different stages when the area was searched:
First the southern area and Hooge Crater cemetery was used, then 3 other cemeteries located rather far away.
The northern area was done later and Dadizele New British Cemetery was then used.
Then the casualties that were found when reconstruction of the area was done (late 1920 to Vichte).
The British graves in German cemeteries in 1924.
Last are the remains that were found during road works etc...

[Matlock1418]

12 hours ago, andrew pugh said:

2 officers of the 1st Battalion Kings Liverpool Regiment who were killed on the same day 24th March 1918. The Officers were Lt Herbert Gordon Thorpe and 2nd Lt Reginald Stuart Tarran. They both fell not far from from each other Thorpe's body was found at 57c.O.4.d.8.8 and concentrated into Bancourt British Cemetery. The unknown Officer who I believe to be 2nd Lt Tarran is buried in Lebucquiere Communal Cemetery Extension.

Its a begger that CWGC don't make it easy to locate exact burial/reburial locations of unknowns in cemeteries. 

Burials/reburials commonly follow date order [of burial/reburial but not necessarily date of death] so by looking at adjacent burials, including those named, you may perhaps be able to get a rough date of burial/reburial for a specific unknown(s)

Do you have the COG BR form including the unknown officer's potential burial/reburial plot details and the form/details for that of the unknown Serjeant?

Can you post it/them/their plot details please?

How do these unknown burials fit into the other burials in Lebucquiere Communal Cemetery Extension?

As for THORPE being reburied into Bancourt British Cemetery - as I suggested before, a different finding date/cemetery being open at that date may perhaps explain that reburial location. His COG BR form records Cross Erected & Checked, 8 October 1919, 182 Labour Company https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/206402/herbert-gordon-thorpe/#&gid=2&pid=2

M

Edited 21 January , 2023 by Matlock1418
add

[andrew pugh]

Thank you All for replying

Kings Liverpool casualties buried in Lebucquiere Communal Cemetery Extension.

Burial 322 Unknown Soldier Kings Liverpool Regiment, grave  2.D.25 concentrated from 57c

Burial 389 Unknown Soldier Kings Liverpool Regiment, grave  2.F.12 concentrated from 57c.

Burial 507 Unknown Soldier Kings Liverpool Regiment, grave 3.A.11 concentrated from 57c.

Burial 508 Unknown Soldier Kings Liverpool Regiment, grave 3.A.12 concentrated from 57c

Burial 509 Unknown Soldier Kings Liverpool Regiment, grave 3.A.13 concentrated from 57c

Burial 511 Unknown Soldier Kings Liverpool Regiment, grave 3.A.15 concentrated from 57c.

Burial 619 Unknown Soldier Kings Liverpool Regiment, grave 4.A.3 concentrated from 57c

Burial 625 Unknown Sergeant Kings Liverpool Regiment, grave 4.A.9 concentrated from 57c

Burial 627 Unknown Captain Kings Liverpool Regiment, grave 4.A.11 concentrated from 57c

Burial 628 Unknown Soldier Kings Liverpool Regiment, grave 4.A.12 concentrated from 57c

Burial 633 Unknown Soldier Kings Liverpool Regiment, grave 4.A.17 concentrated from 57c

Burial 637 Unknown Officer Kings Liverpool Regiment, grave 4.A.21 concentrated from 57c

Burial 638 Unknown Soldier Kings Liverpool Regiment, grave 4.A.22 concentrated from 57c

Burial 640 Unknown Soldier Kings Liverpool Regiment, grave 4.A.24 concentrated from 57c

Burial 641 Unknown Soldier Kings Liverpool Regiment, grave 4.A..25 concentrated from 57c

Burial 643 Unknown Soldier Kings Liverpool Regiment, grave 4.A.27 concentrated from 57c

Burial 647 Unknown Soldier Kings Liverpool Regiment, grave 4.A.31 concentrated from 57c

This is how they are listed on the cemetery list I have. It lists the named casualties and the unknowns.

 

All these lads are buried in Lebucquiere. There are about 5 known casualties of the Kings Liverpool Regiment recorded, who were killed in 1917. I have researched these casualties and their battalions were not in that area in 23rd/24th March 1918,  and I can safely say they should be excluded from my case. The 1st Battalion were the only unit of the Kings Liverpool's in that area during March 1918.

This is all the information I have regarding these casualties, The Burial Returns paperwork must have been lost.  

Thank you for showing your interest.

Kind Regards

Andy Pugh

[Matlock1418]

10 hours ago, andrew pugh said:

This is all the information I have regarding these casualties, The Burial Returns paperwork must have been lost.  

Not necessarily.  COG BR pages can be hard to find using the CWGC system but the late Richard Laughton and the CEFSG (Canadian Expeditionary Force Study Group) pulled a lot of COG BR together and into spreadsheets/folders/Zip Files - I just don't know how to find them. 

Possibly worth searching GWF to fnd out more about this work and/or hopefully another GWF member(s) may perhaps be able to assist with a relevant COG sheet(s).

M

Edited 22 January , 2023 by Matlock1418
CEFSG

[WhiteStarLine]

Every time this comes up I hunt down the late Richard Laughton's wonderful body of work and remind myself to bookmark it.  This time I finally remembered.

The overall site is now managed by forum member Borden Battery.

Quote

The CEF Study Group Discussion Forum can be accessed at the following URL address:

http://cefresearch.ca/phpBB3/

 

 

From there you follow one of the links and see if your cemetery of interest is included.

F7 C2 CWGC Binders

For any one cemetery there may be these binders sorted into these folders:

1. Exhumation Reports
2. Concentration of Graves - Burial Reports
3. Grave Registration Report Form
4. Grave Registration Report Form - From Cemetery Where Bodies Exhumed

Cheers,

 

Bill

[TEW]

This topic may be of use.

It may be worth knowing that there are occasionally extra forms hidden away on CWGC. Exhumation reports if they exist for an individual are not offered up by CWGC on the man's page.

As far as I know the only way to glean all the forms for any given cemetery is to use Downthemall, see above topic.

CWGC usually have Grave Registration Forms, Concentration Forms and occasionally Exhumation Forms. Not sure about 'Burial Returns' being lost, do you mean the concentration forms?

Had a quick look through Lebucquiere Cemetery and see that it should have 624 concentrations but I didn't spot any such forms. I have seen grave registration forms double up as concentration forms and wonder if the large red C on grave registration forms indicates this.

As to the areas covered for post-armistice battlefield clearance there may be something in CWGC archive.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/cwgc-archive/

TEW

[Matlock1418]

CEFSG (Canadian Expeditionary Force Study Group) have visited LEBUCQUIERE COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION and produced this video;

I think your unknown Captain may perhaps be shown at about 5:08 minutes [certainly one unknown Captain is]

The shot of this "British Officer (Captain)" headstone in this video appears to be taken when be looking south [the headstones face towards the Great Cross which is thus behind the camera operator] - by my estimation I think his grave might be in plot III - possibly in a grave 1 or 2 [Cemetery plan available from CWGC site]

Plan thanks to CWGC

Would potentially be helpful if the OP [Andy] could please offer up his suggestion for the unknown Officer's/Captain's grave that he thinks might be Ernest Reginald Last's

M

Edited 22 January , 2023 by Matlock1418
clarify [I hope!]

[LDT006]

I have downloaded all files for Lebucquiere and found only one Burial Return sheet.
It's also online for Galloway: 
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/184452/r-h-galloway/#&gid=2&pid=1

17 hours ago, andrew pugh said:

The Burial Returns paperwork must have been lost.

Seems that you are correct.