James Warden 10165 Scots Guards: Help with Interpretation of Pension Cards/Ledger, Please.

[rolt968]

I wonder if anyone can help me with the entries on the pesion cards and ledger entry for Jame Warden, 10165, 2 Scots Guards. I have found four (so far?) but will leave the fourth out of the fist post.

There seems to be an error here. It is unlikely that she was an "unmarried wife". At least in the usual sense. She was 64 57 68 at the time of the 1921 Census. She does seem to have been some kind of guardian to an illegitimate child. She wasn't (at least obviously) related to either James Warden or the mother of the illegitimate child.

The questions:

1. For how many illegitimate children was a pension paid? Was a pension paid for any illegitimate children?

2. Who applied for the pension for the illegitimate child(ren)?

3. When was the pension for the illegitimate child(ren) applied for?

(You may gather that I think there is something unusual but do not want to prejudice answers. I will post more information in due course.)

Thank you, RM

Third edit to get Catherine Reid's age right!

Edited 15 January , 2023 by rolt968

[RaySearching]

I read it as  Catherine Reid  James's unmarried wife and James's father  Mr James Warden both claimed a dependants pension

Catherine claim  for the couples illegitimate child  was granted,   his fathers claim was refused

The documents were recieved on the 21/3/1916

The claim to expire in july 1928 when the child attained the age of 16 therefore born abt 1912

 

51 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

There seems to be an error here. It is unlikely that she was an "unmarried wife". At least in the usual sense. She was 64 at the time of the 1921 Census. She does seem to have been some kind of guardian to an illegitimate child. She wasn't (at least obviously) related to either James Warden or the mother of the illegitimate child.

Unmarried wife, Thats what it says on the card !

 

Ray

Edit

And the query I assume is the inclusion of Miss Jane Webster on the 4th ledger card

Edited 13 January , 2023 by RaySearching

[rolt968]

Claim to expire on 11 July 1928 when the child becomes sixteen.

Catherine Reid was 57 68(I have corrected the original post!) at the time of the 1921 Census. There was an eight year old girl living with her, classed as a boarder. (The girl was not her daughter.) The girl was born on 11 July 1912.

I will post the fourth card tomorrow. Jane Webster was the mother of the girl. (I'm being a bit discrete about names at the moment as there may be decendants who don't know anything about this.) Jane Webster married in 1920.

So far so good. Except that Jane Webster had twins on 11 July 1912. The other was a boy. Both children survived. I haven't found him in the 1921 Census yet as he had a more common name. He was not listed as living with Catherine Reid.

Hence my questions.

RM

 

Edited 15 January , 2023 by rolt968

[George Rayner]

Appears he had a 'long stay' in hospital-

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000164%2f19150210%2f133&stringtohighlight=james warden

Dundee Courier 10 February 1915

[George Rayner]

Photo of James Warden here

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000164%2f19151014%2f043&stringtohighlight=james warden

Apologies that I do not have the brain power to cut & paste!

George

[George Rayner]

Is this his burial record?

Detail Source

Name:	L-Corp J Warden
Death Date:	30 Sep 1915
Cemetery:	Noeux-les-Mines Communal Cemetery
Burial or Cremation Place:	Noeux-les-Mines, Departement du Pas-de-Calais, Nord-Pas-de-Calais, France
Has Bio?:	N
URL:	https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/56505030/j-warden

Save

 

George

[rolt968]

2 hours ago, George Rayner said:

Appears he had a 'long stay' in hospital-

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000164%2f19150210%2f133&stringtohighlight=james warden

Dundee Courier 10 February 1915

Thank you! He was wounded in the chest on 1 January 1915. (Soldier's Record (Scots Guards) FmP)

2 hours ago, George Rayner said:

Photo of James Warden here

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000164%2f19151014%2f043&stringtohighlight=james warden

Apologies that I do not have the brain power to cut & paste!

George

Thank you agaim. That's OK. I have FMP. I haven't really done the newspaper search yet.

1 hour ago, George Rayner said:

Is this his burial record?

Detail Source

Name:	L-Corp J Warden
Death Date:	30 Sep 1915
Cemetery:	Noeux-les-Mines Communal Cemetery
Burial or Cremation Place:	Noeux-les-Mines, Departement du Pas-de-Calais, Nord-Pas-de-Calais, France
Has Bio?:	N
URL:	https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/56505030/j-warden

Save

 

George

That's him.

RM

[rolt968]

This is the other pension card:

I have also found the other child in the 1921 Census (small fortune in scotlandspeople credits). He was living with Jane Webster's parents in Dyce, Aberdeenshire.

RM

 

[George Rayner]

I have a friend who lives near Nouex-les-Mines who may be able to take a photograph if required

George

[Matlock1418]

On 14/01/2023 at 00:33, rolt968 said:

Claim to expire on 11 July 1928 when the child becomes sixteen.

Yes, and the 5/- [pw] award shows an award to Catherine REID for one child only.

5/- was the rate for an "Illegitimate child" in 1916 - normally paid up to the age of 16, though beyond under certain circumstances [such as extended education, in a nominal wage apprenticeship or if the child was suffering from mental or physical infirmity] - Satisfactory proof of the soldier's prior support for the unmarried mother [for the child], or alternatively paternity, would have had to be established for the unmarried mother to receive the child's allowance of 5/- but another person/guardian could be an alternative recipient of 5/- as it also was the "Motherless child" rate [as it seems appears here - the mother didn't need to be physically dead, just not caring for the child].

The presence of Jane WEBSTER's name and same DP258 claim case number on three cards appears to show she had been involved at the start [before then new-style 1/D/1138 reference commenced]

M

Edited 15 January , 2023 by Matlock1418
tweak

[Matlock1418]

On 14/01/2023 at 00:33, rolt968 said:

Jane Webster had twins on 11 July 1912. The other was a boy. Both children survived. I haven't found him in the 1921 Census yet as he had a more common name. He was not listed as living with Catherine Reid.

13 hours ago, rolt968 said:

I have also found the other child in the 1921 Census (small fortune in scotlandspeople credits). He was living with Jane Webster's parents in Dyce, Aberdeenshire.

I can't really explain why a second "Illegimate Child" or "Motherless child" claim was seemingly not made at some stage by Jane Webster or her parents/the grandparents.  Perhaps due to the potential stigma of such an award and/or the possible wealth of Jane Webster's parents/the grandparents ???

A query = was Catherine Reid perhaps Jane Webster's aunt?  Could be a potentially likely scenario of sisters or sister-in-laws sharing one's daughter's illegitimate twins ???  With Catherine Reid, as a seemingly less immediately-related guardian and in a slightly geographical location, potentially being the less stricken by stigma and/or possibly with less affluence ??? Just a speculation.

As a mature woman in her early fifties it could potentially have been that Catherine Reid had been childless or that her children had died or moved away by 1915/16 - thus being a reasonable candidate for guardianship, especially if related in some way. ???  Again speculating.

M

Edited 15 January , 2023 by Matlock1418
tweak

[rolt968]

14 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Yes, and the 5/- [pw] award shows an award to Catherine REID for one child only.

5/- was the rate for an "Illegitimate child" in 1916 - normally paid up to the age of 16, though beyond under certain circumstances [such as extended education, in a nominal wage apprenticeship or if the child was suffering from mental or physical infirmity] - Satisfactory proof of the soldier's prior support for the unmarried mother [for the child], or alternatively paternity, would have had to be established for the unmarried mother to receive the child's allowance of 5/- but another person/guardian could be an alternative recipient of 5/- as it also was the "Motherless child" rate [as it seems appears here - the mother didn't need to be physically dead, just not caring for the child].

The presence of Jane WEBSTER's name and same DP258 claim case number on three cards appears to show she had been involved at the start [before then new-style 1/D/1138 reference commenced]

M

Thank you. That is an important piece of information. It rules out the possibility that the boy normally lived with Catherine Reid and was only away visiting his grandparents temporarily.

RM

[rolt968]

13 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

I can't really explain why a second "Illegimate Child" or "Motherless child" claim was seemingly not made at some stage by Jane Webster or her parents/the grandparents.  Perhaps due to the potential stigma of such an award and/or the possible wealth of Jane Webster's parents/the grandparents ???

A query = was Catherine Reid perhaps Jane Webster's aunt?  Could be a potentially likely scenario of sisters or sister-in-laws sharing one's daughter's illegitimate twins ???  With Catherine Reid, as a seemingly less immediately-related guardian and in a slightly geographical location, potentially being the less stricken by stigma and/or possibly with less affluence ??? Just a speculation.

As a mature woman in her early fifties it could potentially have been that Catherine Reid had been childless or that her children had died or moved away by 1915/16 - thus being a reasonable candidate for guardianship, especially if related in some way. ???  Again speculating.

M

Jane Webster's father was a farm worker.

I seem to be determined to get Catherine Reid's age wrong! She was 68 in 1921. So far I have found no relationship to Jane Webster - certainly nothing as simple as an aunt. Two grown up sons (one with a wife and child were living with Catherine Reid in 1921.

The status of "boarder" suggested another possible scenario to me. It was the practice to board out orphaned/ abandoned children both officially from poorhouses (workhouses) and unofficially from families. It was an early form of fostering. (The official version was still going on when I was a child.)

RM

Edited 15 January , 2023 by rolt968

[Matlock1418]

7 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

Jane Webster's father was a farm worker.

Seems unlikely that affluence was a factor then!

7 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

The status of "boarder" suggested another possible scenario to me. It was the practice to board out orphaned/ abandoned children both officially from poorhouses (workhouses) and unofficially from families. It was an early form of fostering. (The official version was still going on when I was a child.)

You have certainly got yourself an interesting research challenge.

Best of luck.

M

[rolt968]

On 14/01/2023 at 12:15, George Rayner said:

I have a friend who lives near Nouex-les-Mines who may be able to take a photograph if required

George

Thank you! I may take you up on that when I get to the final write up stage.

RM

[rolt968]

On 15/01/2023 at 14:52, Matlock1418 said:

Seems unlikely that affluence was a factor then!

You have certainly got yourself an interesting research challenge.

Best of luck.

M

Thank you! With the confirmation of the pension for only one child, I have probably gone as far as I will go at least at the moment.

I found more information which I found out when confirming who the children were. Both married in the mid 1930s. The daughter gave the same address in Stonehaven. The son married two or three counties away. The daughter gave no father's name on the marriage certificate. The son gave the correct father's surname and occupation and that he was deceased, but gave the wrong forename.

RM