Boy 4112 / J41327 James Victor Harter

[8055Bell]

James Harter (b 16/04/1899) served at home on HMS Powerful from 14/06 – 08/12/1915.  He was refused a SWB after discharge and died 16/03/1921 aged 21. Burial at Hollinwood Cemetery.  The son of James Victor Harter of 28 Estate Street, Oldham.

No evident connection between service and death.

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, 8055Bell said:

No evident connection between service and death.

Why discharged? [Source? - I'm guessing potentially from his likely Seaman's record from TNA etc?, which I have not accessed https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6940261]

Pension records at WFA/Fold3 - as James Victor HARTER, 4112, RN ... His father got a dependant's pension of 5/-pw from 3-4-21 under [the Royal Warrant] Article 21-1c - so the MoP seem to have been satisfied that his death was service-related - so that seems some evidence

Do you know the cause of his death?  Obviously a Death Certificate would help!!!

M

Edited 5 January , 2023 by Matlock1418
add TNA link

[8055Bell]

One of the WFA cards indicates discharged but not entirely convinced.

[Matlock1418]

There is a disability pension ledger too https://www.fold3.com/image/643628218 as J N [sic] HARTER, J41327, RN - Marked Man Deceased - but the rear is enlightening as shows: 

25/2/21 100% [Degree of disablement], Pension, Conditional [so not finalised] 40/ pw from 12/10/19 to 27/12/21 ATS Decision - obviously he did not live that long.

Got to admit I don't exactly know what the ATS Decision remark means - I'm thinking perhaps/feel convinced it's 'Appeals Tribunal Service' - but @ss002d6252 should be able to help me/us out I think.

To me it looks like the MoP were satisfied enough.

Hazarding a guess ... not having seen his DC ... I might perhaps suspect pulmonary tuberculosis as cause of disablement and likely death [a condition which got a 100% pension rate so as to try and prevent a man trying to go out to work to survive and spreading the disease in the community] - just my hunch at the moment.

M

Edited 5 January , 2023 by Matlock1418

[horatio2]

ADM 188 = Discharged "Shore Invalided" - no further detail - after only 6 months in the Boys' Training Ship at Devonport. Death more than five years after discharge.

His father claimed his British War Medal.

[horatio2]

N.B. his RN Official Number was just J.41327.

4112 was his Ship's Book No. in HMS POWERFUL and is not an identifier.

[Matlock1418]

27 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

ADM 188 = Discharged "Shore Invalided" - no further detail - after only 6 months in the Boys' Training Ship at Devonport. Death more than five years after discharge.

Thanks for that

Agreed seems a long time between discharge and death

Of course we don't yet know cause of death - however if it was fromTB, as I have just speculated ...

MoP guidance for TB was as follows [from a report dated 31-3-18]:

Image thanks to @ss002d6252

HS and TB to be considered "at least aggravated by military service" and thus pensionable [in the absence of contrary satisfaction by a MB or MoP advisers].

CWGC criteria for commemoration include aggravated by service, so ... ???

Somebody needs to get his DC to put us out of our misery!

M

Edited 5 January , 2023 by Matlock1418

[Matlock1418]

5 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

4112 was his Ship's Book No. in HMS POWERFUL and is not an identifier.

Again your excellent specialist RN knowledge comes to the fore  - seems the MoP didn't quite know that when they indexed his father's dependant's pension claim [as they then used 4112 -  compared to J41327 for his son's earlier disability pension claim].

M

Edited 5 January , 2023 by Matlock1418

[8055Bell]

Horatio,

Thanks for the advice.  I needed educating.

M,

The qualifacation for a pension was diffierent criteria to commemoration and changed through the Great War.  I accept the logic of what you're suggesting but I don;t think this would work with CWGC.

Tim