Fraternal Organizations and Ex-Servicemen after demob?

[Ottawa1880]

Hello all,

Odd topic maybe, but I can't seem to find information on this. I am wondering if anyone has any information on the numbers of ex-servicemen joining Fraternal Organizations after WW1. I am particularly interested in the UK. My grandfather, who served as a pilot officer in the RFC/RAF from 1916-18 joined the Masonic Order when he went to Aberystwyth University between 1919 and 1924. He later left the Masons and became active for the rest of his life with the Moose. He was also a Rotarian. I am wondering if the fraternity offered by such organizations served as a replacement for that which they had had with their military comrades during the war?

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, Ottawa1880 said:

Hello all,

Odd topic maybe, but I can't seem to find information on this. I am wondering if anyone has any information on the numbers of ex-servicemen joining Fraternal Organizations after WW1. I am particularly interested in the UK. My grandfather, who served as a pilot officer in the RFC/RAF from 1916-18 joined the Masonic Order when he went to Aberystwyth University between 1919 and 1924. He later left the Masons and became active for the rest of his life with the Moose. He was also a Rotarian. I am wondering if the fraternity offered by such organizations served as a replacement for that which they had had with their military comrades during the war?

There was a particularly strong association between the Masonic Lodges and the British Army garrisons across the British Empire and associated Dominions, including not least India and Ireland.  In a lot of cases it was where some degree of interface took place with the civil institutions of government (Viceroy’s staff, etc.).  Many regiments formed their own numbered lodges and if you do an internet search using something like ‘Historical British Army Masonic Lodges’ you may find some details. See: https://www.1723constitutions.com/evolution/british-empire/military-lodges/

Edited 23 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Ottawa1880]

9 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

There was a particularly strong association between the Masonic Lodges and the British Army garrisons across the British Empire and associated Dominions, including not least India and Ireland.  In a lot of cases it was where some degree of interface took place with the civil institutions of government (Viceroy’s staff, etc.).  Many regiments formed their own numbered lodges and if you do an internet search using something like ‘Historical British Army Masonic Lodges’ you may find some details. See: https://www.1723constitutions.com/evolution/british-empire/military-lodges/

Interesting, thank you for the reply. Yes I think I did come across a reference somewhere to that. I am particularly interested in the situation after the war as my grandfather was very much a "temporary gentleman" and when he returned to Wales he seems to have actively pursued social agenda that included golf, local politics and various different organizations. He became heavily involved as a volunteer with the national Savings Scheme remaining active with the Association for the rest of his life (he died in 1954). By the time of his death he had was a ranking national official in all of the different organizations. Quite a change for a kid from a mining village in Wales. Is it possible that service, fraternity and ritual (the ritual of the mess compared to the ritual of the different organizations) was what attracted young ex-officers?

[FROGSMILE]

On 23/12/2022 at 23:30, Ottawa1880 said:

Interesting, thank you for the reply. Yes I think I did come across a reference somewhere to that. I am particularly interested in the situation after the war as my grandfather was very much a "temporary gentleman" and when he returned to Wales he seems to have actively pursued social agenda that included golf, local politics and various different organizations. He became heavily involved as a volunteer with the national Savings Scheme remaining active with the Association for the rest of his life (he died in 1954). By the time of his death he had was a ranking national official in all of the different organizations. Quite a change for a kid from a mining village in Wales. Is it possible that service, fraternity and ritual (the ritual of the mess compared to the ritual of the different organizations) was what attracted young ex-officers?

Yes I think so.  He would have rubbed shoulders with men for whom being ‘clubbable’ (socially affable) was a key requirement, and a general sense of noblesse oblige was being emulated by the growing middle classes from the example set in most cases by the landed gentry.  They had just emerged from an army pre welfare state, and pre NHS, yet where every wounded soldier had been found a hospital bed, issued a special blue uniform, provided with an organised convalescence, and the best medical care then available.  Such men often reentered civilian life wanting to see a better society for all.

Although the nascent working men’s clubs were less well developed at that time, the middle class men were far more likely to have belonged to a fraternity before 1914, ranging from numerous Christian and Temperance organisations (the latter especially in the Army pre war), to institutions like the Buffaloes and Masons, as mentioned previously.

Upon leaving the army many men missed the bonds of comradeship that they’d experienced and saw the opportunity to combine those qualities with voluntary endeavours to improve society and the lot of the poor.  Much charitable work was done and in addition many former officers found themselves running urban and rural councils and other voluntary or fraternal organisations.  It became a common trope that every village had its ‘retired Major’, known to everyone (and often appearing in Agatha Christie novels).

With regards to the military and Masons see also: https://www.ugle.org.uk/freemasons-hall/brothers-alms-gallery

Edited 30 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

In Australian we had many of your British Groups here.

The one I see a bit, is the Old bast---- 

I understand the Group was all over the world including the USA.

There were so many Men's groups its hard to keep up

S.B

Edited 26 December , 2022 by stevenbecker

[brianmorris547]

Lord Derby formed the Comrades Clubs of the Great War in 1917 and there was a Comrades Club in most towns. The one where I live in Blackpool only closed a few years ago after a fire. Stanley Park in Blackpool was named after Lord Derby because it was built by discharged soldiers.

My grandfather was a plumber in Bolton pre war and he was a member of the Oddfellows and the Buffaloes. Most tradesmen belonged to a similar organisation.

Brian

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, brianmorris547 said:

Lord Derby formed the Comrades Clubs of the Great War in 1917 and there was a Comrades Club in most towns. The one where I live in Blackpool only closed a few years ago after a fire. Stanley Park in Blackpool was named after Lord Derby because it was built by discharged soldiers.

My grandfather was a plumber in Bolton pre war and he was a member of the Oddfellows and the Buffaloes. Most tradesmen belonged to a similar organisation.

Brian

 

Yes I think that men with a trade were particularly likely to be members of a fraternity or mutual aid society, the ancient City Guilds in places like London and the other great metropolises had set highly successful examples.  It was the unskilled labouring classes that were still a little behind, largely I think because of the affordability aspect when they often had so many competing demands on their time and very limited income, frequently living on a hand-to-mouth basis.  For them things like Cooperative Societies and, gradually, working men’s clubs began to fill the void.

As you say, the Comrades Clubs and what became the Royal British Legion, were other examples in case, although at one point government feared that these might become hotbeds of political unrest.  There was still great nervousness after the revolutions toppling monarchies right across Europe.  The focus on charity and self help projects was encouraged and with such worthy distractions those early, establishment fears, gradually ebbed away.

Edited 27 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[ilkley remembers]

The wartime Government had happily accepted the involvement of the voluntary and charitable sectors in providing medical facilities for the wounded as well as finance for comforts for the troops. Such was the amount of money raised by collections and donations that the Charity Act 1916 sought to impose some control on the manner and means by which money was collected.

I think that as the war approached its conclusion and in the immediate post war period groups of ex-servicemen began to be formed with a rather more political agenda. The National Federation of Discharged and Demobilized Sailors and Soldiers (NFDDSS) had a decidedly left wing bias and were quite prepared to vent their spleen against what they saw as an ungrateful government by taking both political and direct action. The burning down of Luton Town Hall in 1919 was one such example.

The Tory Lord Derby in response to the NFDDSS was instrumental in forming the Comrades of the Great War which equipped with a decidedly right wing agenda was happy to spread alarm and dire warnings about the threat of Bolshevism.

The lack of any real enthusiasm amongst the general population for either radical of reactionary response as far as ex-serviceman were concerned created a vacuum which I suppose the British Legion was happy to step into.   

It seems clear reading various studies that most ex-servicemen wanted an organization which was able to represent their interests when it came to financial matters and the political muscle to be heard by the authorities. The BL was also able to provided a place where many men had the opportunity to socialise with others who had shared experiences.

Edited 27 December , 2022 by ilkley remembers

[Ottawa1880]

On 26/12/2022 at 07:33, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I think so.  He would have rubbed shoulders with men for whom being ‘clubbable’ (socially affable) was a key requirement, and a general sense of noblesse oblige was being emulated by the growing middle classes from the example set in most cases by the landed gentry.  They had just emerged from an army pre welfare state and NHS yet where every wounded soldier had been found a hospital, issued clothing, provided with organised convalescence, and the best medical care available.  Such men often reentered civilian life wanting to see a better society.

Although the nascent working men’s clubs were less well developed at that time, the middle class men were far more likely to have belonged to a fraternity before 1914, ranging from numerous Christian and Temperance organisations (the latter especially in the Army pre war), to institutions like the Buffaloes and Masons, as mentioned previously.

Upon leaving the army many men missed the bonds of comradeship that they’d experienced and saw the opportunity to combine those qualities with voluntary endeavours to improve society and the lot of the poor.  Much charitable work was done and in addition many former officers found themselves running urban and rural councils and other voluntary organisations.  It became a common trope that every village had its ‘retired Major’, known to everyone (and often appearing in Agatha Christie novels).

With regards to the military and Masons see also: https://www.ugle.org.uk/freemasons-hall/brothers-alms-gallery

Thank you again That is all great information. My grandfather became involved in everything and reached high ranks in several organization - National Grand Warden of the Moose, Chairman of the Cardiff and District Rural Savings Association (Nationals Savings - he volunteered for 30 years), local Urban Councillor at one time (as a Socialist - Labour), Parish Clerk, first Commander and Squadron Leader of the 372 Barry ATC from 1941-1954, church warden, chairman of various Head Teachers' Associations, School Headmaster, Rotarian, etc. Not bad for a someone who grew up in a mining village in West Wales. It seemed like he was hell bent on serving the community in whatever way he could. No wonder he had a massive coronary and died at the age of 56 in 1954 (although part of that may have been a consequence of wounds suffered during a plane crash in France in June 1918).

Edited 27 December , 2022 by Ottawa1880

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, Ottawa1880 said:

Thank you again That is all great information. My grandfather became involved in everything and reached high ranks in several organization - National Grand Warden of the Moose, Chairman of the Cardiff and District Rural Savings Association (Nationals Savings - he volunteered for 30 years), local Urban Councillor at one time, parish clerk, first Commander and Squadron Leader of the 372 Barry ATC from 1941-1954, church warden, chairman of various Head Teachers' Associations, School Headmaster, Rotarian, etc. Not bad for a someone who grew up in a mining village in West Wales. It seemed like he was hell bent on serving the community in whatever way he could. No wonder he had a massive coronary and died at the age of 56 in 1954 (although part of that may have been a consequence of wounds suffered during a plane crash in France in June 1918).

Yes he does seem a particularly good example of that philanthropic generation of survivors from WW1, it’s a tragedy (among many) that he died so young.  It seems to me that there are far fewer selfless men like him around us today.

Edited 27 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Ottawa1880]

2 hours ago, ilkley remembers said:

The wartime Government had happily accepted the involvement of the voluntary and charitable sectors in providing medical facilities for the wounded as well as finance for comforts for the troops. Such was the amount of money raised by collections and donations that the Charity Act 1916 sought to impose some control on the manner and means by which money was collected.

I think that as the war approached its conclusion and in the immediate post war period groups of ex-servicemen began to be formed with a rather more political agenda. The National Federation of Discharged and Demobilized Sailors and Soldiers (NFDDSS) had a decidedly left wing bias and were quite prepared to vent their spleen against what they saw as an ungrateful government by taking both political and direct action. The burning down of Luton Town Hall in 1919 was one such example.

The Tory Lord Derby in response to the NFDDSS was instrumental in forming the Comrades of the Great War which equipped with a decidedly right wing agenda was happy to spread alarm and dire warnings about the threat of Bolshevism.

The lack of any real enthusiasm amongst the general population for either radical of reactionary response as far as ex-serviceman were concerned created a vacuum which I suppose the British Legion was happy to step into.   

It seems clear reading various studies that most ex-servicemen wanted an organization which was able to represent their interests when it came to financial matters and the political muscle to be heard by the authorities. The BL was also able to provided a place where many men had the opportunity to socialise with others who had shared experiences.

Very interesting - my grandfather went to Aberystwyth University after he was demobbed in 1919. When he completed his studies he began work as a teacher in west Wales. In 1924 he became involved in The National Savings Plan Association and served with that organisation as a volunteer for the remainder of his life - 30 years service - reaching a local leadership role.

Edited 27 December , 2022 by Ottawa1880

[Ottawa1880]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes he does seem a particularly good example of the philanthropic generation of survivors from WW1, it’s a tragedy (among many) that he died so young.  It seems to me that there are far fewer selfless men like him around us today.

My mum was not quite 18 when he died and she doesn't know much about him. She does remember that he was never home and that there was something on every evening. He died at a cafe in Barry, S, Glam, while chairing a meeting of the Head Teachers' Association. We have none of his own documents (sadly none of his WW1 diaries or logbooks). I am working on a biography of sorts based solely on cryptic notes in military service records, university documents, school logbooks, newspaper articles, etc. all of which I have found through online archival searches. At some point I will have to go and do some actual in-archive digging!

[ilkley remembers]

39 minutes ago, Ottawa1880 said:

Very interesting - my grandfather went to Aberystwyth University after he was demobbed in 1919. When he completed his studies he began work as a teacher in west Wales. In 1924 he became involved in The National Savings Plan Association and served with that organisation as a volunteer for the remainder of his life - 30 years service - reaching a local leadership role.

Clearly a worthwhile project and I wish you every success.

The role of the National Savings Movement in the first half of the last century is interesting, at least to me, given that it largely spun out of ‘self help’ ideas of people like Samuel Smiles. The belief that the working class could be released from poverty by the application of middle class values of thift was something of a forlorn hope but it was successful in raising large amounts of money especially in wartime.

 

It might be worth contacting the National Museum of Wales who I see hold the archive of the Welsh Savings Movement to see if your ancestor figures in the records.

 

https://archives.library.wales/index.php/national-savings-movement-wales-records-2

[Ottawa1880]

On 27/12/2022 at 15:38, ilkley remembers said:

Clearly a worthwhile project and I wish you every success.

The role of the National Savings Movement in the first half of the last century is interesting, at least to me, given that it largely spun out of ‘self help’ ideas of people like Samuel Smiles. The belief that the working class could be released from poverty by the application of middle class values of thift was something of a forlorn hope but it was successful in raising large amounts of money especially in wartime.

 

It might be worth contacting the National Museum of Wales who I see hold the archive of the Welsh Savings Movement to see if your ancestor figures in the records.

 

https://archives.library.wales/index.php/national-savings-movement-wales-records-2

Thanks - very interesting. I will check out the National Library. 

 

[Mk VII]

There was a Comrades of the Great War Club in Waltham Cross until fairly recent years, but I believe it is gone now.  The Goffs Oak Comrades club still exists. 

[The Scorer]

As far as I know, the Comrades of the Great War Club in Pontypool still exists, although I haven't been to the town for quite a few years. They used to have commemorations of the Great War and parade on Remembrance Sunday, but whether they still do, I don't know.