Tank crewmen training - just how skilled were they?

[delta]

WM Rossiter, writing in Appendix 4 of the Tanks at Flers states

A tank crewman was a jack of all trades Every soldier had, of course, to be able to a riflemen but the tank crewman had, in addition, to master the Hotchkiss machine gun, the Vickers machine gun (itself normally the subject of a six week training course), his own revolver and an artillery piece. Once inside his tank, as well as being able to man a gun a gun if required , he might need to stand in as a replacement for the driver, a gearsman or even the tank commander, if casualties were not to leave the tank stranded  uselessly on the battlefield.  

Whilst my research confirms every officer and crewman had to pass the basic handling skills test for the Hotchkiss machine gun, the 6 pounder quick firing gun and the Vickers machine gun, I can find no evidence of rifle training and only limited pistol training in 1916  This of course may have changed on the formation of the Heavy Branch / Tank Corps in 1917 but has anyone any evidence of crewmen being required to complete rifle training and, if so, to what standard?

Photo below showing Gnr Lionel McAdam of Toronto (on the left) undertaking Vickers training in the spring of 1916 at Bisley. 

Edited 19 December , 2022 by delta

[johnmelling1979]

Just been reading the "Instructions for the Training of the Tank Corp in France" 1 December 1917

It makes no reference to any sort of Rifle Training, only the Revolver Range, consisting of 

i) A Six-Target range

ii) A Moving Target Range 

iii) Trenches For Trench Practices

 

Perhaps I'm guessing, but by 1916 because most of the men were already familiar with rifles via previous battlefield experience it was not needed, and too big for use with a tank 

This quote may help -

"A Revolver School was set up at Wool in December 1916 when it was
realised as a result of battle experience on the Somme that a revolver was the most
practical personal weapon for the tank crews: 
From active service experience it has been found that the revolver, properly
understood and handled, can be a most useful and deadly weapon in the
field. Its simplicity and reliability rendered it extremely good for use in the
Tank"

 

Only later in the war,  February 1917 it was decided they needed training in the use of grenades-

A Three day course which included dummy and live throwing, as
well as trench fighting and bombing raids. Interestingly, they were also trained how
to throw captured German grenades.

 

Cheers

John

 

Edited 20 December , 2022 by johnmelling1979

[delta]

John

 

That is most kind - thank you 

Whilst there were inter unit transfers of trained men in 1917, many of the crewmen in 1916 and most in 1918 had no previous military experience - 

 

[6RRF]

At the risk of stating the obvious, whilst there may have been an assumption that tank crews will have been taught something of rifles in their basic training - standing guard with a pick-helve isn't really on in wartime - there was no requirement to carry rifles inside tanks

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

While during this early time I am sure how they did it, but all soldiers would have had some training with rifles at the basic level with the Regt.

Clearly not all training was the same, and as most of the early Tank crews came from some other unit/Regt, before the Tank Corps would it have been done then?

As to pistol Traing, my training was a short five minutes handed a pistol and shot it

While pistols were carried by some crew, I believe not all crew carried them?

you just don't need something hanging off your belt in a Tank, when space is limited.

We use to where shoulder holsters as Commanders because you just can't wear them around your waist in tight spaces.

The crew use to take them off in the Tanks, when carrying out there duties, and put them on when dismounting.

In the end a pistol was only issued to Commanders, and the crew, a personal weapon when dismounted

S.B

[6RRF]

Wouldn't disagree with any of that, but there's probably a matter of perception here.

All soldiers were assumed to be armed with a basic weapon - a rifle. How much training they actually received is a different matter and in some cases they may not have gone beyond a quick naming of the parts, which isn't the same as being "trained" in the sense of a course of instruction in using say the Hotchkiss or Vickers

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Agreed, but a pistol is not a MG, while you could spend all day with as much details as you want, in the end its point and shoot.

While I gained a marksman badge with pistol "P", that was after many more hours at the range shooting it

On bailing out, a pistol is not much good, when a rifle would be better,  even in the trenches.

In combat we always carried an extra weapon, as a pistol will not always save you, unless there close enough to hit?

S.B

[6RRF]

Wouldn't disagree in principle, but I've not seen a single picture of dismounted/baled-out tank crew carrying rifles. I do recall however mention of them forming Lewis gun teams during the retreat in April 1918

[delta]

Many thanks for all your comments

I have checked over the images of the tank crews under training at Bisley in 1916 ; there are pictures of dry training om 6 pounders and live firing on the Vickers and Hotchkiss machine guns  - however there are no images of them undertake rifle practice. Initial live firing on the 6 pounders was undertaken on RN warships  following a range practice using sub calibre weapons at HMS Excellent at the naval gunnery establishment 

I have also read through the correspondence from one of the crewmen named Walter Atkins who wrote also every couple of days to his mother in Coventry about his initial training. Sadly he makes no reference to range work of any sort; he does however mention undertaking guard duty when he carried a rifle but not that he carried live ammunition. 

The crewmen were issued with their revolvers shortly before deploying to France (the officers bought their own of course)  but, remarkably, only two of the pictures of crewmen in France shows them  wearing weapons.   One first hand account of an action on 15 Sep states that at least one of the crew left his weapon in the tank  - and had to run back inside when they were attacked by Germans!

Tank crews were formed into Lewis gun teams during the German 1918 spring offensive, initially as ad hoc groups  near Albert in March 1918 and then a formed units of company minus size when they were used during the Battle of the Lys to support the infantry  - this resulted in casualties with at least one such company being destroyed as they fought the attacking German infantry  

Edited 21 December , 2022 by delta

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Yes I read the same, that the crew would take a MG for use.

Our Regt in yearly combat tests, would dismount at .50 or .30 MG, and the crew of each tank would have to carry it, for our battle tests

I would have gladly swapped the .50 for a Lewis or Hotchkiss MG

S.B

 

[johntaylor]

Hi Stephen,

You may be aware there are histories of various training schools in the National Archives (WO 158/802). These include the Revolver School which I've attached - there are also longer histories of the Gunnery School which give a detailed account of Lewis, Hotchkiss and 6-pounder training. There is no mention of rifle training, though they had 6-pounders fitted with .303 and air rifles for training purposes. Incidentally there is even a short history of the Pigeon School.

Re rifles, I have never heard of these being issued to or used by tank crewmen. As mentioned above, many recruits would have been familiar with rifles from their previous military careers, but I've never seen any reference to formal training in the HBMGC or Tank Corps.

John

[delta]

John 

Many thanks for the feedback - I am not at all sure that members of the MMGS received any substantive rifle training nor, for that matter, any fieldcraft skills

The introduction of such formal training at Bovington, after tank crew training moved from Elveden, indicates that the lack of effective  revolver training in 1916.  

[delta]

Have just re-read the reminiscences of 32202 Gnr Archie Richards who was a member of the D7 crew on 15 Sep 1916 near Flers. These were published in Veterans (Pen & Sword originally published in 1998) written by Richard van Emden and Steve Humphries It is not recorded who carried out the original interview (Richards died aged 101 on 9 Feb 1998P 

Richards states that he undertook Hotchkiss machine-gun and 6 pdr training but "we did no physical training and Iived a different life from the rest of the Army. I didn't even learn to fire a rifle".   

Richards gave a description of the battle including that his tank drove right into the middle of Flers  The D Coy War Diary states that the tank broke down before it crossed the front line  

[Gareth Davies]

On 21/12/2022 at 22:58, johntaylor said:

Hi Stephen,

You may be aware there are histories of various training schools in the National Archives (WO 158/802). These include the Revolver School which I've attached - there are also longer histories of the Gunnery School which give a detailed account of Lewis, Hotchkiss and 6-pounder training. There is no mention of rifle training, though they had 6-pounders fitted with .303 and air rifles for training purposes. Incidentally there is even a short history of the Pigeon School.

Re rifles, I have never heard of these being issued to or used by tank crewmen. As mentioned above, many recruits would have been familiar with rifles from their previous military careers, but I've never seen any reference to formal training in the HBMGC or Tank Corps.

John

 

 

I know that a later page in that file mentions air rifles but have you ever seen anything about the precise set up? I am currently writing about the supply of .22 air rifle rounds to France but I don't have much extra to go on. I know that they used electro mechanical firing gear but I don't have a whole lot more than that. Any ideas?