‘Three Kings’ (Trois Rios) estaminet near Shrapnel Corner

[David_Blanchard]

I wonder if anyone has more information about a white estaminet on the Lille Road out of Ypres called ‘Three Kings’ most trench maps have this labelled as Trios Rois, just south of Shrapnel Corner north of Woodcote House?

 

I cam across this establishment in the war diary of the ADMS 46th Division, July 1915.

 

David 

[brianmorris547]

David 

I've been keeping my eye on this one because I have noticed Trois Rois on the Verbrandenmolen Maps in the 1915 WDs of 5 Div, 28 Div and 46 Div. I attach a map from the WD of 46 Div HQ GS (TNA WO 95/2662) which shows more of Ypres than the maps in 5 and 28 Div papers. Also see this image from my IGN 1:20 000 Poperinghe - Ieper Sheet 28 1-2 where it is marked Koningshoek. I tried Google Maps but Street View would not take me there. I must have driven past it loads of times.

Have you seen the 5 Corps plans in the July, August and September WDs of 46 Div HQ GS. Trois Rois is marked so something must have been there. The accidental grenade incident is mentioned in the WD 08/07/1915 so it is the place that the ADMS visited for the meeting.

I looked at the WDs of the ADMS 5 and 28 Divs but I could not find anything. Nor could I find anything in the WD of 5 Corps A&QMG (WO 95/753/1 and 753/2).

Brian

[David_Blanchard]

Hi Brian, just picked this up, been away for Christmas. I will read with interest.

 

David 

[brianmorris547]

David

The February 1915 WD of 83 Infantry Brigade of 28 Div records that when they took over from the French they were at Trois Rois without saying where. They were relieved by 85 IB later in the month and their WD also just records Trois Rois. The Bns were further south in the Trenches.

Brian

[Howard]

Looking through some of the 300+maps on TrenchMapper that cover this area, most show it as Trois Rois including the German maps but one has Three kings in German, Drei Könige (Id= m_020062). It is located about 28.I.20.c.45.81.

The German map with Id=m_91_000113 has an artillery battery there and unspecified linear feature, possibly a light railway.

Howard

 

[David_Blanchard]

Howard and Brian,

 

Thanks again for your help and interest. Howard you you have a direct link on TrenchMapper for the German Map as I find the website difficult to navigate!

 

David 

[Howard]

1 hour ago, David_Blanchard said:

Howard and Brian,

 

Thanks again for your help and interest. Howard you you have a direct link on TrenchMapper for the German Map as I find the website difficult to navigate!

 

David 

David

We are in the process of enabling direct links, not there yet for all sorts of reasons.

To see a map, right click and choose Map ID Jump then insert an id like m_020062. That will take you direct to the German map.

The fact that Drei Könige and not Trois Rois appears is slightly odd. Each German army had its own cartographic section which led to different map standards, grids etc. but much of the time they used the (awful) French or Belgian base maps. The cartographic style of m_020062 does not look German so why did they bother to change the place labels when other German maps still have Trois Rois? The British redrew maps, initially from the French or Belgian maps  and later from their own survey data- it seems the Germans did very little of this. That affects what is on a base map and why.

With m_020062 displayed, right click on Drei Könige and chose Centre map here. To the right of where it says Trench Maps and the red number is the Update button. Click that to make sure the map list is relevant to your point. As of today that gives 331, (more to come).

Then you can work down the list for the same point to see what changes. Naturally the date problem pops up, many maps have no date (which affects where they appear in the map list), some have only the base cartography date which may be a year or so before whatever markup or overprint is on the map. Dates are real nuisance in the map business and there is no easy fix for that. The dates shown in the map list are on the map, any assumed dates are in [square brackets] in standard museum practice- no doubt it will be possible to determine a date for an undated map but that in itself is huge job for the whole map set. For one map specific to a project it may be worth the effort.

Make sure you look at the bottom of the map list where the undated maps or those with no scale are.

Howard

[AOK4]

5 minutes ago, Howard said:

The fact that Drei Könige and not Trois Rois appears is slightly odd. Each German army had its own cartographic section which led to different map standards, grids etc. but much of the time they used the (awful) French or Belgian base maps. The cartographic style of m_020062 does not look German so why did they bother to change the place labels when other German maps still have Trois Rois? The British redrew maps, initially from the French or Belgian maps  and later from their own survey data- it seems the Germans did very little of this. That affects what is on a base map and why.

 

The Germans literally translating certain place names on their maps isn't that odd at all. I've seen it more than once. I can't judge on this particular map as I can't see it, but Trois Rois seems to remain "Trois Rois" on most maps 1:20,000 I have seen, but is "Drei Könige" on the 1:10,000 maps. One should check the maps in different scales and it should probably become clear how and when the translation turned up.

Anyway, I believe to have read somewhere that these pubs with the name "Les Trois Rois" may have a relation to the brewery with the same name in Menen (in Belgium, pubs are often owned by the brewery).

Jan

[David_Blanchard]

Howard,

 

Excellent many thanks for taking the time to reply so comprehensively.

 

 

David