Royal Dublin Fusiliers & North Russian Intervention

[lynedmonds]

Hello,

I'm looking for any information on the Royal Dublin Fusiliers and their service in North Russia, 1918/9. 

Has anyone come across any mention of the RDF in the North Russia diaries - I can't see any mention on TNA catalogue (or elsewhere).

My grandfather had a long career with the 1st Bn RDF and was on Reserve in 1918 when he went to Russia. 

He embarked at Dundee on 20 September and disembarked in Archangel on 1 October 1918 and served there until 27 September 1919.

With thanks, Lyn

 

[corisande]

Lyn

can you give us his full name, and if possible his service number

[lynedmonds]

Thank you for your reply. I have his full service records as he was a Regular from 1909 - 1933, and have been researching his life and career for several years now.

It is specifically his and the RDF activities in North Russia  that I'm interested in.

After doing research for others over the years, I've decided at last to write up his story!

It will eventually be added in the Research /Soldiers' Stories section of my website https://awayfromthewesternfront.org/

Thanks again

Lyn

[alf mcm]

Lyn,

  The Royal Dublin Fusiliers didn't serve in North Russia as a unit. It is likely that he volunteered to serve with another unit. This may or may not show up on his service records.

Regards,

Alf McM

[corisande]

Just now, alf mcm said:

The Royal Dublin Fusiliers didn't serve in North Russia as a unit. It is likely that he volunteered to serve with another unit. This may or may not show up on his service records.

That's why I wanted to get his name !

[lynedmonds]

Corisande - you are welcome to his name, but my enquiry is a general one and I didn't want anyone to waste time researching him - he was Benjamin Hurt

Alf - thank you for your reply and like you I didn't think that they served there as a unit, but I'm increasingly thinking that maybe some of them did go as RDF and I'm trying to see if there is any proof/evidence that they did or didn't. 

I'm hoping to perhaps find someone who has read the 'ELOPE' diaries, to see if a Dublin Fusilier gets a mention.

As for my grandfather, he was in RDF Reserve and immediately went back to the depot in Naas on return from Archangel and no mention of being attached to another regiment.

Lyn

www.awayfromthewesternfront.org

@aftwf1418

[FROGSMILE]

16 hours ago, lynedmonds said:

Corisande - you are welcome to his name, but my enquiry is a general one and I didn't want anyone to waste time researching him - he was Benjamin Hurt

Alf - thank you for your reply and like you I didn't think that they served there as a unit, but I'm increasingly thinking that maybe some of them did go as RDF and I'm trying to see if there is any proof/evidence that they did or didn't. 

I'm hoping to perhaps find someone who has read the 'ELOPE' diaries, to see if a Dublin Fusilier gets a mention.

As for my grandfather, he was in RDF Reserve and immediately went back to the depot in Naas on return from Archangel and no mention of being attached to another regiment.

Lyn

www.awayfromthewesternfront.org

@aftwf1418

He has to be attached to a unit Lyn, that is a standard principle.  Someone has to be responsible for feeding him, paying him, and administering him (for example a quartermaster to obtain new boots, or exchange a ripped jacket).  Usually an infantryman would, if fit, be attached to an infantry battalion.  Alternatively he might join a headquarters on a temporary basis, as say a clerk, or a signaller, in which case the Labour Corps unit, or its pro tem equivalent supporting the headquarters, would administer him.  On paper he is  ‘detached’ from his parent unit and ‘attached’ to his employing unit.  

Edited 19 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[lynedmonds]

Hi, thank you for you reply.

He was a long serving machine gunner with the Dubs and continued his active service with them until disbandment, so I suspect he would have been attached to another infantry battalion in Russia. A long shot, but maybe the dates of his travel to and from Archangel might suggest possible regiments for his attachment?

Lyn

www.awayfromthewesternfront.org

@aftwf1418

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, lynedmonds said:

Hi, thank you for you reply.

He was a long serving machine gunner with the Dubs and continued his active service with them until disbandment, so I suspect he would have been attached to another infantry battalion in Russia. A long shot, but maybe the dates of his travel to and from Archangel might suggest possible regiments for his attachment?

Lyn

www.awayfromthewesternfront.org

@aftwf1418

 

 

It depends on what sort of ‘machine gunner’ that you mean Lyn.  Machine Gunners in the truest sense were those trained on the Vickers MG.  The war commenced with each battalion having two similar guns (Maxims initially) forming a section commanded by a junior officer, who was assisted by a sergeant.  Those sections were all absorbed by a centralised machine gun corps in 1916, and their men went with them.  The infantry battalions then received Lewis Guns as a platoon weapon and so issued on a much wider scale.

Thereafter every infantry soldier was trained to operate the Lewis Gun as part of his training before deployment, so there weren’t any ‘machine gunners’ in quite the same sense.  They were riflemen who could also fire a Lewis Gun, and generally the better marksmen either, became battalion snipers, or Lewis Gunners.  I’m assuming from what you’ve said that your subject was one of these latter.

Matching dates with embarkations might work, but it depends on whether he was a part of the initial transport out, or joined subsequently as part of a reinforcing draft.  There were certainly several infantry battalions made up-to-strength with detachments from other regiments, so what you’ve outlined is entirely feasible.

Edited 19 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[lynedmonds]

Yes the latter as you say - his records show that he was a qualified Lewis Gun instructor with the Royal Dublin Fusiliers.

Thanks again.

Lyn

[Keith_history_buff]

22 hours ago, lynedmonds said:

I have his full service records as he was a Regular from 1909 - 1933, and have been researching his life and career for several years now.

Hello Lyn,

Did you write off to the Army Personnel Centre to obtain his service record? 

It would appear that he was in India at the time of the 1911 census.
https://www.britisharmyancestors.co.uk/search-result/?q=Hurt+Dublin

[lynedmonds]

Hello

Yes, I did that some years ago and have his full service record - I'm just writing up his story at long last.

He first enlisted in 1909 and served with 1st RDF until its disbandment and then he was with Northumberland Fusiliers until 1933.

Thanks for your reply.

Lyn

[Keith_history_buff]

I see that he was discharged from the RDF on 13 June 1921 and that he re-enlisted 15 July 1921. 

Are you able to post an image of his Army Form B. 200 Statement of the Services, please?

Thanks
Keith


https://www.nam.ac.uk/soldiers-records/persons?ss={"q":"7075213 hurt"}

[58 Div Mule]

Well, I’ve just listened to Gordon Corrigan delivering a presentation to the Western Front Association regarding the British intervention forces in Russia. His ‘Force Orbat’ (Order of Battle) gives one Company Royal Dublin Fusiliers.

58 DM.

 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, 58 Div Mule said:

Well, I’ve just listened to Gordon Corrigan delivering a presentation to the Western Front Association regarding the British intervention forces in Russia. His ‘Force Orbat’ (Order of Battle) gives one Company Royal Dublin Fusiliers.

58 DM.

 

Fantastic, that’s really helpful.  I wonder which battalion they were attached to.  Or perhaps they were Divisional Troops as an independent company, which seems less likely, but I’m unsure what the total strength of NREF equated to in terms of formation levels.  Not enough to make up a Corps I shouldn’t think.

Edited 20 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Keith_history_buff]

There is no reference to any Royal Dublin Fusiliers entries in the index to Damien Wright's book on North Russia. I have come across an unreferenced mention of the RDF, but with no indication as to size.

The French ski troops departed Leith on 19 September 1918, and arrived at Murmansk on 26 September 1918. I wasn't able to ascertain which British units were leaving ports on 20 September 1918 for North Russia.

[58 Div Mule]

Keith,

Agreed. I can find no reference in Damien’s excellent book either.

I guess we need to ask Gordon where his info comes from? In due course the presentation will be available on WFA YouTube.

58 DM.

[Keith_history_buff]

What is interesting is all these fragmented odds and sods of company-sized detachments in various places that I am seeing in the appendix.

 

[lynedmonds]

Yippee - thank you! 

Sadly, I had to cancel my booking for Gordon Corrigan's presentation last night, but will catch up when it's on YouTube. 

I'm still wondering if the diaries mention the RDF at all - perhaps someone with those may eventually see this thread.

They went to Archangel from Dundee, not Murmansk, so I think it's ELOPE Force - Murmansk was SYREN I understand.

Lyn

https://awayfromthewesternfront.org/

[Keith_history_buff]

A later time period, but a RDF connection

 

Quote

'Harcourt's Force' under Maj. H.G. Harcourt, DSO and Bar, MC, Royal Dublin Fusiliers attd. 201st (Special) Bn., MGC was comprised of Lieut. Maxwell Perry's (Devon Regt. attd) platoon of 46th Royal Fusiliers and Lieut. Curtis Snodgrass' (Bedfordshire Yeo. attd.) 'Australian Section' of 'C" Company, 201st MGC.

 

There was also a 'May's Force' under Maj. Harry May, DSO, MC and Bar, RFA comprised of Capt. William Newbold's (Manch. Regt. attd.) three platoons of the Australian 'Special Company; 45th Royal Fusiliers and two companies of North Russian Rifles.

 

Both Forces took part in the attack on the enemy battery position near Emtsa on the Archangel-Vologda Railway on 29th August 1919, the action for which Australian 45th Royal Fusiliers volunteer Sgt. S.G. Pearse, MM ex-AIF was awarded a posthumous Victoria Cross.

 

[lynedmonds]

Keith,

thank you - the Harcourt connection is particularly interesting as he too served with 1st RDF in Gallipoli (as did my grandfather) and Harcourt returned to that regiment after Russia. Maybe the RDF company was part of his 'force' - can't find any evidence yet though. 

Lyn

https://awayfromthewesternfront.org/

[Neville Ian Scarlett]

Hello Lyn. My grandfather was in the RDF and was part of a unit of 400 men attached to another battalion which was sent to Russia in 1918. His name was Robert J Kerr. I have sent you an email although I could have the wrong address. I don’t have much information and most of it came from my mother whose memory was unreliable. Were the other Irish units sent to Russia?

Neville Ian

[kenf48]

 

3 minutes ago, Neville Ian Scarlett said:

Hello Lyn. My grandfather was in the RDF and was part of a unit of 400 men attached to another battalion which was sent to Russia in 1918. His name was Robert J Kerr. I have sent you an email although I could have the wrong address. I don’t have much information and most of it came from my mother whose memory was unreliable. Were the other Irish units sent to Russia?

Neville Ian

Welcome to the GWF

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[Neville Ian Scarlett]

Can anyone give me advice on how to look up Robert Joseph Kerr’s military records? He was born in Donegal in 1899 and I think joined the Royal Dublin Fusiliers and was then attached to another unit as part of the Russian or Northern Expeditionary Force. I cannot find any records in Irish or Uk archives online. The fact that he was in the army in the late stages of the war and then afterwards, and also because Ireland exited the Union in 1922, may account for the lack of information?

Thanks.

[Jervis]

Hi Neville

Can you confirm this is iYour man here in 1901 census, living in Letterkenny  ?

I can’t see any good match in military records - We need more info. 

Why do you think he was in the RDF & that he served in Russia? 
Who did he serve with post war? 
 

Jervis