Early RFC Photo

[dawrana]

Does anyone recognise this photo, please? I'm thinking late 1912, rather than the suggested file date of May 1913?

[scottmarchand]

I'd say more like May 1918 - the plane looks an awful lot like a D.H. 4 or something.

[dawrana]

Nice try and thank you for posting. We have a signed, partially-cropped copy dated 11 January 1913 - and I am advised the 'plane is an RFC Breguet G3, number 210 or 211. But please keep the ideas coming!

[quemerford]

I'm not sure it's a Breguet G.III - a particularly flimsy-looking contraption. It does bear certain similarities and I'd assumed it might be one of the 'RE' series but can't find an obvious candidate.

[McCudden]

I think it may be a Be2

Alec

[quemerford]

10 minutes ago, McCudden said:

I think it may be a Be2

Alec

Certainly wouldn't agree with the date; in any case, the squared-off wingtips were a later addition and there are no kingposts visible, so there are too many parts which don't go together to make it BE.2 or any of its children.

[Interested]

I'd estimate the wingspan as around 40 ft; does this help identify the aircraft?

[pierssc]

Well just the age of those wearing wings suggests pre-war, and those wearing RFC "Maternity jackets" are wearing peaked caps and "slacks" with them (rather than puttees), which I don't recall seeing in any wartime photos. It's cold enough for many of them to be wearing coats, so it could be May, but more likely earlier or later in the year.  Assuming it is pre-war the RFC was so small at that point that we ought to be able to name most of them.   Isn't the chap in the bowler hat Mervyn O'Gorman, Superintendant of the Royal Aircraft Factory?  With Trenchard peering over his right shoulder (as we look at him)?  And is that David Henderson fourth from right?  In which case we should be looking for Sefton Brancker (possibly third from the right - no wings, but he didn't get his RAeC "ticket" till June 1913), and Frederick Sykes - is the latter the short guy standing to the right of O'Gorman wearing wings (Sykes gained his in 1911)?   Everyone was probably at least commanding a squadron by August 1914.  Brooke-Popham (possibly to the left of and behind Henderson)?  Barrington-Kennett? 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205085277 This picture of early RFC staff officers identifies those in it some of whom who MAY appear in the OP's photo .

Have a dig around http://rafweb.org/Biographies/1-Cdrs_sel.htm and the list of people in the original RFC contribution to the Expeditionary Force in  http://www.airhistory.org.uk/rfc/EF3.html

Ancestry has the early RAeC "ticket" photographs.

 

[dawrana]

Just a quick update from me. Thank you all for your contributions.

The good news about forums is all the additional information they provide; the less good news is that it is easy to get off-topic. So, just by way of a re-cap: the photograph has to be taken before 11 January 1913 (we have a cropped copy, autographed and dated on that date). If (big "if") the 'plane is a Breguet G3 (210 or 211), then it should be late-1912. From the overcoats being worn, best guess then is Autumn/Winter 1912.

The basic question is where, when and why 21 of the RFC's finest are assembled for a group photograph? For me, this photograph should be iconic. But the source of the original photograph is not obvious. My copy is from The Great War Aviation Society (C&CI) - thank you very much - but their original source is not known. The photograph is not known by the RAF Museum.

Looking for fresh ideas, please, about possible sources for the original photograph. Is there anyone out there, who has seen it before? Thank you very much.

[pete-c]

On 15/12/2022 at 16:35, dawrana said:

Nice try and thank you for posting. We have a signed, partially-cropped copy dated 11 January 1913 - and I am advised the 'plane is an RFC Breguet G3, number 210 or 211. But please keep the ideas coming!

Definitely a Breguet, but not a G3 as these had 100-hp Gnome.  It's an L2 with a 70-hp Renault engine, the long cylinder hold-down bolts of which are just visible.  It's either 212 or 213.   212 was allocated to No.2 Sqn RFC after 3 October 1912.   On 2 November it was at the Royal Aircraft Factory for reconstruction and was transferred to No.4 Sqn on 21 December.  By April 1913 it had been re-engined with a Salmson radial engine.

213 was transferred to No.4 Sqn on 21 December 1913 and continued with this unit into 1913.  This machine was possibly also re-engined with a Salmson radial.  All the above details are taken from Britain's First Warplanes by JM Bruce, 1987.  

I think the chap in civilian clothing, wearing a bowler hat, could be Frederick Hugh Sykes.

Edited 18 December , 2022 by pete-c

[JohnC]

You could try the Farnborough Air Sciences Trust. They inherited a lot of archive information from the old RAE. https://airsciences.org.uk

[kenf48]

On 15/12/2022 at 09:40, dawrana said:

Does anyone recognise this photo, please? I'm thinking late 1912, rather than the suggested file date of May 1913?

Don't recognise it, but could the photograph been taken around the time of the infamous Army Manoeuvres September 1912?

Grierson managed to defeat Haig by skilful deployment of aircraft. I believe this was the first year the RFC were deployed, it might explain the Staff Officers.

Trenchard was certainly there , on the 'winning' side.

[pete-c]

14 hours ago, kenf48 said:

Don't recognise it, but could the photograph been taken around the time of the infamous Army Manoeuvres September 1912?

Grierson managed to defeat Haig by skilful deployment of aircraft. I believe this was the first year the RFC were deployed, it might explain the Staff Officers.

Trenchard was certainly there , on the 'winning' side.

I think you've hit the nail on the head.  And further investigation as to the location of this photo has led me to believe that it is Larkhill.  The shed (hangar) is one of the 'temporary' ones erected for the Military Trials held at Larkhill in August 1912.  

[terryjg]

Well, for a start  the photo is at Larkhill at the time of the Military Aeroplane Competition. The shed in the background is one of the temp. Sheds erected for the event in Aug 1912. Most of the sheds were removed in Oct 1912 but 2 pairs remained for another couple of months. At the time of the M A C  it was annouced that flying would stop at Larkhill, and the RFC moved to Netheravon soon after. So mid  1912 is probable date for the pic. If it is O' Gorman in the bowler that dates it to the first 3 weeks in Aug 1912

[Moonraker]

Postcard of the Breguet entry (Number 8)  in the Military Aeroplane Competition at Lark Hill. J M Bruce, The Aeroplanes of the Royal Flying Corps (Military Wing), says that it had a 110hp Canton-Unné engine with two radiator units above the engine, each side of the airscrew shaft.

It had a fraught  journey from London on a trolley hauled by a steam tractor, arriving too late to undertake the quick-assembly test. Bevel gears in the engine had not been run in and the original  airscrew was too large. Its first flight was "a glorified hop" that ended with a broken wheel on landing. Magneto  failure thwarted further tests and by the time a replacement had arrived from Paris the competition had closed.

Another Breguet entry, Number 9, was damaged on its way to the trials and didn't compete.

The above doesn't perfectly complement what's gone before, and it may be that dawrana's photograph shows a different Breguet after the completion was over. Come to think of it, I have assumed that the photo on  my card was taken during the MAC and not afterwards.  No  trials  number ("8") is visible on the aeroplane, but then I can't  see  one on two other photos in Bruce's book that he places as being taken at the trials. But then the obvious civilians suggest it is the MAC  entry.

Identifying almost anything is not a strong  point with me, and I'm content for others to continue the debate.

Hope I haven't confused things too  much.

EDIT: possibly the civilian crossing his legs could be Number 8's pilot at the MAC, Rene Moineau?

Edited 27 April , 2023 by Moonraker

[Moonraker]

Having reflected on this thread overnight and flipped backwards and forwards between the two photos in this thread:

The MAC was a rare opportunity for everyone who was anyone in the RFC to come together.

Why would the RFC's finest pose for a photograph in front of a French plane (though the RFC had already endorsed Breguet aircraft and had some on its strengt)? Not there were many British ones, and few of these had any success (they were two Bristol Coandas, two British-built Deperdussins, a Maurice Farman and the Cody biplane). .

I wonder whether the aircraft in the two photos are the same models.

I can't match the bowler-hatted man to Mervyn O'Gorman and wonder if he's Louis Breguet.

 

I've even wondered whether the panelling at the rear of the two sheds is the same. That in the group photo looks to be longer than in mine. But then they could be different sheds at Lark Hill. And a photo of the Piggot biplane (which never got in the sky at Lark Hill) shows square panelling.

I suspect that I've got to the stage of over-thinking ...

 

 

 

Edited 28 April , 2023 by Moonraker

[PRC]

Just to cross-reference this to the thread where we tried to identify the individuals present.

Cheers,
Peter

[pete-c]

3 hours ago, Moonraker said:

Having reflected on this thread overnight and flipped backwards and forwards between the two photos in this thread:

The MAC was a rare opportunity for everyone who was anyone in the RFC to come together.

Why would the RFC's finest pose for a photograph in front of a French plane? Not there were many British ones, and few of these had any success (they were two Bristol Coandas, two British-built Deperdussins, a Maurice Farman and the Cody biplane). And the RFC had already endorsed Breguet aircraft and had some on its strength.

I wonder whether the aircraft in the two photos are the same models.

I can't match the bowler-hatted man to Mervyn O'Gorman and wonder if he's Louis Breguet.

 

I've even wondered whether the panelling at the rear of the two sheds is the same. That in the group photo looks to be longer than in mine. But then they could be different sheds at Lark Hill. But then a photo of the Piggot biplane (which never got in the sky at Lark Hill) shows square panelling.

I suspect that I've got to the stage of over-thinking ...

 

 

 

Moonraker - these are definitely two different machines.  The aircraft in the group photo is a Breguet L.2 powered by a Renault V8 (see page146 of Bruce's The Aeroplanes of the Royal Flying Corps.)  The image posted by yourself is indeed the British-built Trials machine powered by a horizontally mounted Salmson Canton Unne water-cooled radial.  I can only surmise that the lack of a tail number is due to the fact that as the machine arrived too late to undertake the quick-assembly test, it was not allowed to participate in the competition proper.  See also my post of 16 December.

[terryjg]

AS I have said, the shed in the background is that of the temporary type used  for  the MAC at Larkhill. The aeroplane however is not easily recognised as any of the entrants to that competition. The other possibility is that this is Farnborough. After the MAC, 16 of the 20 sheds from Larkhill were reerected there. So perhaps R.A.F. at Farnborough?