George CROSS, Pte 8817, Highland Light Infantry

[Tom Lang]

George CROSS is named on my local War Memorial. Larkhall War Memorial - CROSS, George - Pte 8817 1st HLI

CWGC has only one soldier of that name in the HLI.

Private George Cross | War Casualty Details 1438516 | CWGC

Grave Registration records for this soldier show that he Drowned at sea (from H.T. "Cameronia") 15th Apr 1917.
These records also show that he was serving with the 1st Bn HLI.

His MIC confirms his number as 8817 and the 1st Bn HLI and he arrived in France on 1 Jun 1915.
The Medal roll for the 1914-15 Star shows him as 1st Bn.
The Medal roll for the VM & BWM shows him as 1st Bn and 2nd Bn.

The War Diary for the 1st Bn HLI shows that on 15 Apr 1917 they were at SHEIK SAAD (Mesopotamia).

The War Diary for the 2nd Bn HLI shows that on 15 Apr 1917 they were in Trenches at BRAY.

The attached documents are snippets from several sources including CWGC, Ancestry, and TNA.

So there is much wrong with what I have at present.

I'd like to ask the assistance of GWF gurus who might see where I have mis-identified the soldier on my local War Memorial. 
That's the only conclusion I have at present.

Kindest Regards,
Tom.

Edited 12 December , 2022 by Tom Lang

[Matlock1418]

On 11/12/2022 at 19:21, Tom Lang said:

my local War Memorial.

Where might that memorial be please.

M

[RussT]

On 11/12/2022 at 19:21, Tom Lang said:

So there is much wrong with what I have at present.

What do you actually think is wrong with what you have presented?

The SDGW record for 8817 HLI George Cross states that he was born in Dalserf, Lanarkshire and enlisted in Larkhall, Lanarkshire.

So, as noted above, it would be informative to let us know where your local memorial is located - and then to see if there is any connection between your local memorial location and the birth/enlistment locations provided by SDGW.

8817 HLI George Cross has some Soldiers Effects Records and Pension Cards that detail family members, which might help pin down the man/family to the location via census records. So, again, the location of your memorial would be the key bit of information needed first.

I think all the other records e,g, regarding his Battalion(s) are explicable - but one step at a time - the memorial location first to try to confirm or otherwise whether it is likely to be the correct man. Then we can reconcile all the other information for 8817 HLI George Cross if we can conclude it is him.

Regards

Russ

 

[RussT]

OK, something I should have done, as it's extremely easy to do, before posting the above.

A quick Google search tells me he is on the Larkhall War Memorial:

Larkhall War Memorial - Home

I also learn from Wiki that Dalserf is 2 miles from Larkhall.

Therefore, I would be very confident indeed that 8817 George Cross HLI is the man on the Larkhall memorial given the SDGW birth/enlistment details.

Regards

Russ

[Tom Lang]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

Where might that memorial be please.

M

My apologies. I should have known better.

Here he is on my website: Larkhall War Memorial - CROSS, George - Pte 8817 1st HLIT

25 minutes ago, RussT said:

What do you actually think is wrong with what you have presented?

<snip>

 

12 minutes ago, RussT said:

OK, something I should have done, as it's extremely easy to do, before posting the above.

A quick Google search tells me he is on the Larkhall War Memorial:

Larkhall War Memorial - Home

I also learn from Wiki that Dalserf is 2 miles from Larkhall.

Therefore, I would be very confident indeed that 8817 George Cross HLI is the man on the Larkhall memorial given the SDGW birth/enlistment details.

Regards

Russ

It's confusing - Dalserf is a Village and a Parish.

So if both Battalions are in Mesopotamia and France on the reported Date of his Death, how could he be Drowned in the Med on that date?

Tom

Edited 12 December , 2022 by Tom Lang

[Tom Lang]

I have researched the sinking of the "Cameronia" but am unable to find a connection to this soldier and his Battalion.

The War Diaries do not show any 1st or 2nd Battalion HLI troop transfers or movements (via the Med) to/from Alexandria during that time.

Tom.

Edited 12 December , 2022 by Tom Lang

[RussT]

He was on the troopship HT Cameronia - carrying reinforcements for Mesopotamia which was torpedoed and sunk on 15 April 1917 east of Malta, with the loss of 127 officers and men of the Commonwealth forces.

If you look at CWGC for that date and filter for HLI then you will find 24 HLI men in total who drowned on that sunken ship. They are all listed as 1st Bn HLI except an officer who is given as 7th Bn but that is likely to be the Bn with whom he was commissioned rather than the one he was intending to serve.

I think these men were part of a draft to the 1st Bn including recovered wounded/sick, which I think was the case for Cross. He is on a medical record in October 1916 serving with the 2nd Bn, so perhaps it's his recovery from that which led to a new posting to the 1/Bn.

If you look at the medal rolls for all these 24 men, their Bns are all over the place, again suggesting men were being gathered together to form a draft from recovered men who had served previously with other Bns.

Regards

Russ

 

[Tom Lang]

10 minutes ago, RussT said:

He was on the troopship HT Cameronia - carrying reinforcements for Mesopotamia which was torpedoed and sunk on 15 April 1917 east of Malta, with the loss of 127 officers and men of the Commonwealth forces.

If you look at CWGC for that date and filter for HLI then you will find 25 HLI men in total who drowned on that sunken ship. They are all listed as 1st Bn HLI except an officer who is given as 7th Bn but that is likely to be the Bn with whom he was commissioned rather than the one he was intending to serve.

I think these men were part of a draft to the 1st Bn including recovered wounded/sick, which I think was the case for Cross. He is on a medical record in October 1916 serving with the 2nd Bn, so perhaps it's his recovery from that which led to a new posting to the 1/Bn.

If you look at the medal rolls for all these 25 men, their Bns are all over the place, again suggesting men were being gathered together to form a draft from recovered men who had served previously with other Bns.

Regards

Russ

 

Thanks Russ,

Can you give me your source of "He is on a medical record in October 1916 serving with the 2nd Bn".

Kindest Regards,

Tom.

[RussT]

6 minutes ago, Tom Lang said:

Can you give me your source of "He is on a medical record in October 1916 serving with the 2nd Bn"

FindMyPast - part of the so-called MH 106 Record Series

 

[RussT]

Here is the CWGC output for HLI men who died on 15/04/1917 and are commemorated on the Chatby Memorial.

They are all commemorated as being 1/Bn (except the Officer - but I explained that, I think, earlier)

I have added a column that lists their HLI Battalions as recorded on their BWM/VM medal rolls.

As you can see, plenty do not mention 1/Bn, some do but also have a previous Bn/unit and some just have 1/Bn.

Cross, as you found, is recorded as serving in 1st and then 2nd Bn. We know he started in the 1st as per his 14/15 Roll. We also know he was with the 2nd in October 1916 but, like some others on the list, they didn't record the 1st as his final Bn (because he, like the others, never actual reached them).

I had a look for service records but did not find a single one from this list.

Regards

Russ

 

[6RRF]

If its any help in tracing his history backwards, my great grandfather, Jack Milton, joined 2HLI on a short-service engagement on 20 August 1903 with the number 8907. Served for a brief period with 1HLI before coming out and was then called up again to 2HLI in 1914. That could suggest a similar background for George Cross

[Pat Atkins]

That's an interesting fact - supported by Paul Nixon's authoritative army service numbers blog which says the number series was used by 1st and 2nd Battalions HLI for Regular service (number 8480 being issued on 06/02/1903 and 9203 on 09/02/1904). The precise terms of engagement for Regular infantry were adjusted throughout the Edwardian period (there's a very useful thread here, including a summary reference table created by the knowledgeable Muerrisch) but the overall commitment was to a combination of 12 years in total with the colours and reserves. So as 6RRF indicates, if he was a pre-War Regular with that number George Cross would have been a reservist in 1914, unless he had extended his service terms.

[Matlock1418]

12 hours ago, Tom Lang said:

My apologies. I should have known better.

Here he is on my website: Larkhall War Memorial - CROSS, George - Pte 8817 1st HLIT

No worries - was aware of, and considering pointing out, the Larkhall pension cards but I now note you have already retrieved them and placed onto your website page. Sorted!

M

[6RRF]

On 13/12/2022 at 07:46, 6RRF said:

If its any help in tracing his history backwards, my great grandfather, Jack Milton, joined 2HLI on a short-service engagement on 20 August 1903 with the number 8907. Served for a brief period with 1HLI before coming out and was then called up again to 2HLI in 1914. That could suggest a similar background for George Cross

Taking this a little further 8817 George Cross would have been in Egypt with 1HLI in 1904 and then at the end of the year to India. 1HLI then remained there until 1914 before returning to Europe in 1914. This obviously took time [via Egypt again] so of he was a Scottish-based reservist at that time he would probably have been picked up by 2HLI. The fact that he started off the war with 1HLI suggests that he may have extended his service and still been with them when they were ordered back from India in 1914

[Tom Lang]

Many, many thanks to each and all of you.

I am truly impressed by the width and depth of knowledge of the GWF members.

Kindest Regards,

Tom Lang.

[6RRF]

A pleasure, Tom, any time :-)

[Keith_history_buff]

To muddy the waters, and being prompted by a comment made on another thread, what ranges of numbers were being issued to those men who engaged under Special Reserve terms of service...

There is a surviving service record for 8182 William Clark. The details are patchy, but it looks like he enlisted in the HLI under Special Reserve terms on 15 August 1914 and was dispatched to Plymouth to join the 4th (Extra Reserve) Battalion. He was demobilised on 4 February 1919, with an address of 271 Easter Road, Leith. Found by a combination of the N&M Press medal roll on FMP, and then their service record search. Both sources are explicit that he is being demobilised to the Special Reserve, rather than Army Reserve Class Z.

I see that for a number of infantry regiments, Paul Nixon has extended his research, to cover the number ranges of Special Reserve enlistments, but not for the Highland Light Infantry. This is just one man, but it does suggest that the SR men were getting issued 8*** series numbers, whilst the Regular enlistments were getting issued five digit numbers.

It would appear that there is some great material in the HLI Chronicle.

[Keith_history_buff]

Image courtesy FindMyPast

[Keith_history_buff]

The clue is from the aforementioned MH 106 record.

Image courtesy Fold3

[Pat Atkins]

That does muddy the waters, doesn't it! Lately I've been looking at service numbers re enlistment, etc., for several men of interest to me - but don't know enough about the SR numbering, I realise. Thanks for posting this.

Pat

PS do you think that "3rd Bn, attached Nth Bn" is the standard way of denoting SR service with the Nth Bn?

[Keith_history_buff]

It's always good to view the original source, and verify what has been captured. I associate ForcesWarRecords with poor quality data that always needs to be verified. In this instance I cannot see any reference to 3rd Battalion on the document. There is a reference to "Div   2HP". His religion is stated as Presbyterian in the transcript but all I can see is "C E" on the document. The header of the document states 2nd Field Ambulance 63rd (RN) Division, Clairfaye.

I do not see there being any administrative need to record terms of service. What is useful to the researcher, when considering terms of service based on service number, is that the age of the soldier, years of service, and months with field force are useful to determine if 1. he enlisted under Special Reserve terms of service in 1914 or 2. he enlisted under Regular terms of service in 1903.

[Keith_history_buff]

How very peculiar.

FWR/Fold3 have an admission dated 14 November 1916, admission 20599, archive reference MH 106/1111.

FindMyPast have an admission dated 19 October 1916, admission 630, archive reference MH 106/223, transferred to duty Acheux 22 October 1916.

[Keith_history_buff]

Both appearing on FMP

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?datasetname=british armed forces%2c first world war soldiers' medical records&lastname=cross&eventyear=1916&eventyear_offset=0&firstname=g&firstname_variants=true&servicenumber=8817&sid=999

[Keith_history_buff]

From Mailly on 13 November, Hospital Ship on 16 November. 

'3 att 2 HLI'