Russian raid near Kornes Jan 1916

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

I did wonder where to place this question, as it does not fall into a shown area for comment?

Since Gallipoli is part of the Ottoman Mainland, then maybe here?

I did check Google maps, but could not find this town, so there maybe a name change also?

All this was before the advance on Erzurum in Feb 1916

This I posted on another site,

Strange one was found in Erickson book "Ordered to Die" page 125

He states on the night 27-28 Jan 1916 a Russian force raided the area of the village of Kornes in the 3rd Armies sector, HQ of 38th Div and captured the Commander, eight staff officers and the Div Veterinarian, the Artillery commander and three of his staff, and on the way back collected 3 guns and 200 Ottoman soldiers.

Now this was comment had me looking, as the 38th Div was no where near the 3rd Armies Area?
I did wonder if he meant the 18th or 28th Div's as they were on that Front?
But again none show any numbers of officers lost around this time?
The 18th Div does shown its 98th Regt almost destroyed at Hasan Kale 14-1-16

Do any know of what Erickson is talking about here or any details on this Russian raid
Cheers

S.B

Edited 7 December , 2022 by stevenbecker

[michaeldr]

This raid is also mentioned by Prof Sean McMeakin in his book 'The Ottoman Endgame' [2015, ISBN 978-0-718-19971-5]

[michaeldr]

3 hours ago, stevenbecker said:

I did check Google maps, but could not find this town, so there maybe a name change also?

see https://fr.getamap.net/cartes/turkey/erzurum/_kornes/

It is about half way between Kars and Erzurum - check using the name Güvenlik

Edited 7 December , 2022 by michaeldr

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

It looks like either one copied word for word

They both made the same mistake as the 38th Div was no where here?

S.B

Edited 7 December , 2022 by stevenbecker

[michaeldr]

see Güvenlik on modern maps

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Again thank you I can now see where this action took place

Google was no place name for here, but a Service Station appears close to it, just south of Toprakkale

S.B

Edited 7 December , 2022 by stevenbecker

[emrezmen]

The raid was briefly mentioned in the second volume of Turkish official history of the Turkish Eastern (or/and Caucasus) Front (p. 79) with a good reference to Turkish military archives (ATASE). Oddly enough it is within the wrong volume. 

The first volume of the Turkish official account covers the 1914-1915 operations, while the second volume deals with 1916-1918, both written in more or less chronological order. But the raid which was actually carried out on 27-28 January 1915 somehow appears in the 1916-1918 volume! As a result, both Erickson and McMeekin took it as "1916." Moreover, they took the number of the division wrong. It was 30th Division. The 38th, which had been in Iraq from the outset, was no more at the time of the raid.

There is no way it can be late-January 1916 as the 30th Division had retreated some 20 kilometres north of Erzurum by that time. The village Kornes was already well behind the Russian frontline at that time. The exact location of Kornes (now Güvenlik) is 40°23'01.40" 42°02'18.93"

See also Marshall Fevzi's book "Birinci Dünya Savaşı'nda Doğu Cephesi Harekâtı" (Operations on the Eastern Front in the First World War) p. 68:  

 

 

Edited 8 December , 2022 by emrezmen

[michaeldr]

That's brilliant detective work Emre: thank you so much!

[stevenbecker]

Emrezmen,

Thank you, but the problem still remains, who are these men there talking about?

The 30th Div shows two officers who commanded it

Kaymakam / Yarbay    LtCol    Ali Osman Bey, and

Kaymakam / Yarbay    LtCol    Bahattin or Bahaeddin Pasha     Comdr 30th Div    KIA 18-6-16
 

So who was captured around Jan 1915 clearly not Bahattin 

I have no details on Ali Osman Bey?

So he's a blank here, was he captured with his staff?

The whole 30th Div is limited on details 

all I have is

10th Corps (3rd Army) Caucasus 1914/16 dissolved Aug 1916 

Garrision Erzinghian 1914 - defeated at Sarikamis Dec 1914 (reformed as 30th Caucasus Regt part 10th Caucasus Division Aug 1916

1-3/88th Regt                               1-3/89th Regt                                1-3/90th Regt (no details found?)

30th Artillery Regt - Maj Von Berg (G)    unknown 75mm guns    possibly 3xBn's (16 Field guns & 12 Mountain guns) 1914 shown Jan 1915 2xBn's (24 guns possibly less)  reduced to 2x Bn's (24 guns) 1916
 

The Div shows its movement during this time as

Hasan Kal’a 20.11.14 Heran 22.11.14 Çakmak 16.12.14 Kösk Köy'ü 19.12.14 Ahbesor 21.12.14 Tetmeç 23.12.14 Kal’a Bogaz'i 24.12.14 Pennek 25.12.14 Herzenk 26.12.14 Beg Köy'ü 27.12.14 Kara Hamza 28.12.14 Çatak Stn 04.01.15 Çermik 07.01.15 Hammas i Zîr 09.01.15 Erzerum 03.05.15  Iyd 11.01.16 Tetmeç 16.01.16 Üç Köse 20.02.16

Since the Russians/other sources claim the Artillery commander was captured, was Maj von Berg commanding at the time or did he replace the captured commander?

All I have on Maj von Berg is

Berg von    Capt (Maj)    CO 30th FAR 1914/15 Caucasus 3rd Army (Sivasta'da 30. Sahra Topçu Alayi Komutani (da 30th Field Artillery Area Commander in Sivas)    1914-16    (DoD 1916) Krankheit (illness) of Typhus at Bitlis Eastern Turkey - from Fußartillerie-Regiment No 26 (not identified)? shown in Klaus Wolf's Book

Mates there are just to many gaps with the 3rd Army Troops during this wild period of the war

S.B

Edited 7 December , 2022 by stevenbecker

[emrezmen]

Thank you, Michael & Steve.

16 hours ago, stevenbecker said:

Mates there are just to many gaps with the 3rd Army Troops during this wild period of the war

 

It is fair to say that the Caucasus / Turkish Eastern Front is indeed one wild and complex and at the same time overlooked chapter in WWI.  

16 hours ago, stevenbecker said:

So he's a blank here, was he captured with his staff?

 

According to the published war diary of the division ("30’uncu Tümen Sarıkamış Harekâtı Ceridesi", Askeri Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi), Ali Osman had gone on sick leave on 3 Jan 1915 (vol 1 p. 59). Interestingly, the CO seems to be constantly changing after that. Staff Major Şemsettin and Lt-Col. Bahattin (not the same as the one who was KIA in 1916) took over the command consecutively. The final CO was apparently another staff major, Fethi (most probably Fethi Uzgören b.1877) (vol 3 p. 72). Although he could not escape capture, he escaped the POW camp in Siberia! Alas, he would be pensioned off as soon as he arrived home.

 

16 hours ago, stevenbecker said:

Since the Russians/other sources claim the Artillery commander was captured, was Maj von Berg commanding at the time or did he replace the captured commander?

 

According to the war diary, von Berg was in command in 1914 but there is no mention of him after December 1914.

The official history states that "the artillery commander was amongst the captured" but I couldn't confirm whether it was him.

 

 

Edited 8 December , 2022 by emrezmen

[stevenbecker]

Emrezmen,

Many thanks, its always good to sort these out.

Whats written becomes fact we all believe, but little do we check these sources to confirm what they talked about, and so the fault gets passed on to the next writer.

But again Mate we have a problem, I am sorry but Turkish sources say this on Fethi

Balkan Savaşı’nda İhtiyat Ordusu Kurmaylığı, Elazığ Tümeni Kurmay Başkanı, 93’üncü Alay Komutanı olarak görev yaptı. Birinci Dünya Savaşı’na 31’inci Tümen Komutanı olarak katıldı ve Ruslara esir düştü. Sibirya’da esir iken buradan kaçarak yurda döndü. 34Döndükten sonra 11 Ekim 1915’te emekli edildi.3

=Google translate

Balkan War staff to Commander 93rd Regt 1914 to Commander 31st Div 1915 captured by Russians escaped and retired 11 Oct 1915

So have we again mixed up the Division raided?

The commanders of the 31st Div until disband in Aug 1916

Kaymakam / Yarbay    LtCol    Hasan Vasfi Bey    31st Div (commanded during the winter battles 1914-15 ordered retreat to village of Beyköy)                 

Binbasi to Kaymakam     Maj to LtCol     Süleyman Izzet (Yeginati)     CofS 2nd Res Cavalry Div & CO 31st Div 1915 & 15th Div 1-16 to 1918 captured Baku Caucasus 8-18        Cav (1881 to 1944) Caucusus                            

Kaymakam / Yarbay    LtCol    Kazim Bey    31st Div (I have not details on him?)

So where did Fethi fit in, possibly before Izzet arrived to replaced Vasfi after the winter battles?

I have no commander Artillery for the 31st Div and like many Regt units of the 3rd Army, no officers are mentioned?

Emrezman, I believe Süleyman Izzet (Yeginati) wrote a book on this peroid of the war, while with the 2nd Res Cav Div and such, its in Turkish so I could not be sure what he wrote about this time?

S.B

Edited 9 December , 2022 by stevenbecker

[emrezmen]

Attached is an order given by Lt.-Col. Fethi at Kornis (Kornes) on 26 January 1915 (WD vol 3 p. 215).

And an account of the raid in the war diary (quoted from WD of 88th Regt and not very detailed) 

At this point, I think we have plenty of evidence that it was the 30th Div, and its CO was Fethi when the raid took place. I may well be wrong in my assessment of his full name, though.

On 09/12/2022 at 00:20, stevenbecker said:

Emrezman, I believe Süleyman Izzet (Yeginati) wrote a book on this peroid of the war, while with the 2nd Res Cav Div and such, its in Turkish so I could not be sure what he wrote about this time?

 

It's called "Büyük harbin başında 2. İhtiyat ve Nizamiye Süvari Tümenleri ile Aras cenup müfrezesinin muharebeleri." I haven't read it but I don't think there's too much in it about the activities of the 10th Corps or 30th Div.

Edited 10 December , 2022 by emrezmen

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

I sorry for some reason I can't translate these Interesting parts you gave, I would have liked to read what the 88th Regt said here?

But I'll go with you and he was made commander 30th Div

Yes, Izzet book appears to be with his service in the 2nd Res Cav Div during this early peroid, but why not his move to his new command in 1915?

Cheers

S.B

 

[emrezmen]

10 hours ago, stevenbecker said:

I sorry for some reason I can't translate these Interesting parts you gave, I would have liked to read what the 88th Regt said here?

 

 

Kompur* Olayı (88’inci Alay harp ceridesinden aynen alınmıştır.)

“Tümen Komutanlığının 26 - 27 Ocak 1915 tarihli emriyle bu gece 88’inci Alay Kompur’da ikamet etti. 27 Ocak sabahı, Alay her ihtimale karşı kendisini savunmak için Kompur mevkisinin tehlikeli olmasından dolayı Kompur’un doğu sırtlarına çekildi. Sırtlardan sürekli olarak düşman gözetleniyordu. Bu gözetlemenin sonucunda, düşmanın Narman ve çevresini tahliye ettiği ve birçok nakliye arabasının yüklü hâlde Narman Vadisi boyunca geriye doğru gittiği anlaşıldı. Tümen Komutanı Yarbay Fethi de 27 Ocakta Kompur’a gelerek çevreyi gözetledi ve Alay Komutanı Binbaşı Nurettin Temel’le mevzileri dolaştı. 26 Ocakta Kornes’in yüksek taşlı tepelerinde topçumuz mevzi almıştı. Bu mevziden sürekli olarak Narman Vadisi’ne ateş ediliyordu. Fakat topların menzili yeterli gelmediğinden mermiler, Kompur’un batısındaki tepelere düşüyordu. Tümen Komutanı, Kompur’a geldiği gün topların 27 Ocak gecesi daha ileriye, Kompur’un doğu sırtlarına alınmasını emretti. Aynı gün Topçu Komutanı, topçu teğmeniyle birlikte, mevzi seçmek üzere Kompur’a geldi. Gece sabaha karşı topları getirmek üzere tekrar gittiler. Saat 20.00 sularında 90’ıncı Alay doktoruyla aynı alaydan bir teğmen geldi. Bu sırada Tümen Komutanlığından 100 askerle topların (Toplar Kornes’teydi, emir gereğince henüz Kompur’a gelmemişti.) hemen Kornes’e ve bir mitralyöz tüfeğiyle 100 askerin de Pitkir’e gönderilmesi için emir geldi. Emir gereğince 200 askerle makineli tüfek hemen yola çıkarıldı. Yolda, Pitkir’e yardıma gitmesi için emir alan 89’uncu Alay Komutanı Binbaşı Rasim’e rastlamışlar. O zaman düşman tarafından bütün yollar tutulmuş. Binbaşı Rasim hemen bir keşif taarruzu yaparak 88’inci Alaya “Düşman, Kompur’la Kornes arasındadır. Çekilme hattı kesilmiştir. 90’ıncı Alay dağılmış ve Tümen esir edilmiştir. Bundan dolayı Sorik’e çekiliniz.” şeklinde, geri çekilmesi gerektiğini söylemiştir. Bunun üzerine 88’inci Alay, kalan kuvvetiyle Sorik - Aristi istikametinde çekildi ve 28 Ocakta Şekerli’ye geldi. Aynı gün Şekerli’deki mevziler 32’nci Tümene teslim edilerek gelindi.”

Google Translate:

The Kompur Incident (exactly taken from the 88th Regiment's war history)

“With the order of the Division Command dated 26 - 27 January 1915, the 88th Regiment resided in Kompur tonight. On the morning of January 27, the Regiment withdrew to the eastern ridges of Kompur to defend itself just in case, as the Kompur position was dangerous. The enemy was constantly being watched from the ridges. As a result of this surveillance, it became clear that the enemy had evacuated Narman and its environs, and many transport cars were traveling backwards across the Narman Valley, laden. The Division Commander Lieutenant Colonel Fethi also came to Kompur on January 27 and watched the surrounding area and toured the positions with the Regimental Commander Major Nurettin Temel. On January 26, our artillery took up position on the high stony hills of Kornes. From this position, the Narman Valley was constantly being fired upon. However, because the range of the guns was not enough, the shells were falling on the hills west of Kompur. On the day he arrived in Kompur, the Division Commander ordered the artillery to be taken further on the eastern ridge of Kompur on the night of January 27. On the same day, the Artillery Commander, together with the artillery lieutenant, came to Kompur to choose a position. At night they went again to fetch the balls in the morning. At around 20:00 a lieutenant from the same regiment as the 90th Regiment doctor arrived. Meanwhile, an order came from the Division Command to send 100 soldiers and artillery (the guns were in Kornes, as per the order, they had not yet arrived in Kompur) to Kornes and 100 soldiers with a machine gun to Pitkir. As per the order, 200 soldiers and machine guns were immediately set out. On the way, they came across Major Rasim, Commander of the 89th Regiment, who had been ordered to go to help Pitkir. At that time, all roads were blocked by the enemy. Major Rasim immediately made a reconnaissance attack and said to the 88th Regiment, "The enemy is between Kompur and Kornes. The withdrawal line has been cut. The 90th Regiment was disbanded and the Division was captured. Therefore retreat to Sorik." He said that he should withdraw. Thereupon, the 88th Regiment withdrew with its remaining strength in the direction of Sorik - Aristi and arrived in Şekerli on 28 January. On the same day, the positions in Şekerli were handed over to the 32nd Division.”

*: Kompur is some 3 km north of Kornes.

Edited 11 December , 2022 by emrezmen

[stevenbecker]

Emrezmen,

Mate thank you, always good to see what happening from original sources.

Now I have two Regt commanders for the 30th Div, fills a big gap.

What I did find interesting was this comment

"The 90th Regiment was disbanded"

This appears to be a comment made by Maj Rasim, commander 89th Regt

There is no mention of the disbandment of the 90th Regt at that time, 

S.B

[stevenbecker]

Emrezmen,

 Tosun posted this copy of Fevzi Book

"Marshall Fevzi Pasha writes on p.68: "Ruslar da Sibirya Kazak tugayı ile Kornes'de 30'ncu Tümen karargahına , 28 Ocak 1915'te bir baskın yaparak tümen komutanı ile kurmay başkanını ve 5-10 subay ve askeri esir aldılar" He doesnot mention any names."

"Marshall Fevzi Pasha writes on p.68: "The Russians, with the Siberian Cossack brigade, made a raid on the 30th Division headquarters in Kornes on January 28, 1915, and took the division commander, chief of staff and 5-10 officers and soldiers prisoner" (Tosun gives He does not mention any names.)

The Russian had at lest four dismounted Cossack Bdes in their Army during 1914-16 possibly carried out the raid, then the many mounted Cossack Regts in their Army?

With 

1st Caucasus Corps                1st Kuban Plastun Cossack Bde (dismounted)     Gen Przhevalskiy CofS Col Temrin    1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th and 6th Kuban Plastun Cossack Bns (-) Bn at Batumi

5th Caucasus Corps                2nd Kuban Plastun Cossack Bde  (dismounted)     Col Krasnopevtsev 2-15 to Gen Bukretov 7-16    7th 8th 9th 10th 11th and 12th Kuban Plastun Cossack Bns     

2nd Caucasus Cavalry Corps                4th Kuban Plastun Cossack Bde (dismounted)     Gen Mudryi to Gen Kruten 8-15    19th 20th 21st 22nd Kuban Plastun Cossack Bde + 1st and 2nd Terek btns 5-15

1st Caucasus Corps                Separate Don Cossack Foot (Plastun) Bde (dismounted)     Gen Voloshin-Petrichenko to Col Polukhin 12-16    1st 2nd 3rd and 4th Don Cossack (Plastun) Bns 

But if we take Fevzi at his word, that the Cossacks were  Siberian, then we have a hit, as this was the only Siberian unit in the Army, but was mounted.

 Siberian Cossack Bde    Gen Kalitin to Col Raddatz 9-15         1st and 2nd Siberian Cossack Regts    2nd Orenburg Cossack Bty (6 guns)

This Bde was in the Reserve Army as garrsion in Tiflis during 1914-15 was independent, before moving into the 2nd Turkestan corps 2-15 

But if they joined the Army in the field Feb 1915, then possibly not the unit that raided the 30th Div?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
I have no maps to know where the Russian Army were deployed on the Erzurum front that day (does the Turkish offical History show any maps of this time?)

S.B

Pardon my Turkish, but you show Fethi wrote this in his report

"Toprakkale'nin garb-i cenubisindeki sirtlarda ya'ni Kompir koyunun simal-i sarkisindeki sirtlarda dusmanin 70 - 80 kisilik bir piyade kuvvetiyle birkac atlisi vardir"

Mine and Googles poor translation

"On the ridges in the western part of Toprakkale, that is, on the ridges in the simal-i song of Kumpir bay, the enemy has several horsemen with an infantry force of 70 - 80 people."

So possibly Cossaks were involved?

Edited 19 December , 2022 by stevenbecker

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

If you don't see Mikhail's great answer here it is;

Finally! In the book http://militera.lib.ru/h/korsun_n1/index.html  (Korsun. "The Sarikamysh operation") I was able to find the interesting information:

"On January 5, 1915, the 11th Caucasian Rifle Regiment with four mountain guns, reinforced by four hundred Cossacks, was advanced from Gabaev's column to capture Gornes { looks like a Kornes in your transcription - Mikhail}. This detachment, on a heavy night march into a snowstorm, overcoming hard-to-reach mountains, captured the Gornes area with a sudden night attack, where among the prisoners were: the commander of the 30th Infantry Division of the 10th Corps with the entire headquarters, 170 officers and doctors, 400 askers, 3 guns and 1 machine gun. At this episode, the Russian offensive in the Oltinsky direction stopped, and Kalitin's cavalry detachment gathered in the Olty-Noriman area, with guard units advanced forward."

Look like the confirmation of your story from Russian side.

The date of January, 5th looks strange , but maybe the old time style??"

We will need to confirm the Georgian date to our time, but looks right. and Kalitin was the commander of the Siberian Cossacks Bde so ticks a number of boxes.

Just to add 

3rd Caucasus Rifle Bde   Gen Gabayev    9th 10th 11th and 12th Caucasian Rifle Regts +  3rd Caucasus Artillery Bn (18 guns)

So the pieces fall together

S.B

Edited 21 December , 2022 by stevenbecker