Dive Copse: Concentrations?

[TEW]

CWGC states:

Quote

Plot III contains the graves of 77 men who died in August 1918 when it was retaken. This plot also contains graves brought in from scattered sites and small cemeteries in the neighbourhood.

There are no concentration sheets (that I can find) but the GRRFs describe certain rows in plot III as being concentrations.

Then there are other entries for graves in Plot III that are simply marked with a red C and a tick right hand side. However, there are more red Cs on the left handside.

My example sheet below, I've marked III J 10-14 as concentrations and graves 9 & 15-20 as probable concentrations. Can't say I like having 'probable' concentrations involved. I can't make the maths for the 77 men in August 1918 work out.

I've got 189 burials in total for Plot III which includes 24 Unknowns. 120 concentrations & 20 probable concentrations both of which include Unknowns.

Anyone care to chime in and describe graves 9-20 as definite concentrations?

TEW

[LDT006]

Complicated puzzle, took a few hours to solve it..... This is how I see it:

The forms for plot III show that rows A, B, C, D and L were all concentrations. Total of 83 graves (Row L was later removed).
Then there are 29 graves in the other rows marked with a "C" on the right hand side.

Number of concentrations from the above is 112, 
Total number of graves in plot III is 189
189 - 112 = 77

This doesn't look like concentrations some time after the war because there are to many scattered graves in the other rows. 

Hope this helps,
Luc.

 

[TEW]

Thanks Luc,

I emailed CWGC years ago regarding another cemetery's GRRFS with red Cs and was told that red Cs = Concentrations. For Dive Copse the problem is the red Cs on the right and other red Cs on the left which don't always tally with each other.

There should be 44? Concentrations from 'Essex Cemetery' (1918) which is further north and actually nearer the Copse.

Put 62d.J.24.d.6.8 into Tmapper and it shows 'Copse Cemetery' which probably equates to 'Essex Cemetery' but Dive Copse Cemetery is marked as 'Lone Tree Cemetery' which makes things awkward.

The dressing station diary mentions the cemetery being created in June 1916 which tallies with the present day one.

For my extract Plot III Row J, it could be 5 concentrations or 12 looking at the left side?.

I should be able to determine those from Copse/Essex Cemetery.

TEW

 

[LDT006]

That map makes it difficult, it shows
Lone Tree cemetery at 24.d.7.2 and there are no boundaries with crosses for Copse cemetery on that map.
There is "something" at 24.d.8.8 which might be a cemetery?

I have:
Dive Copse Cemetery at 62d.J.24.d.9.0, just SE of Lone Tree and
Essex British Cemetery, Sailly-le-Sec at 62d.J.24.b.9.9 (see that "something" above).

Also the CWGC description says "ESSEX CEMETERY, Sailly-le-Sec, which was 900 metres further North, on the edge of the Bray-Corbie road."

The grids on the trench map show in Tmapper must be slightly off because Dive Copse Cemetery is on the side of the road exactly where Lone Tree cemetery is marked.
That "something" mentioned above must be Essex British Cemetery, Sailly-le-Sec and matches the 900m north from the CWGC description.

Time to check some other maps and find where Dive Copse was.

Must run now, maybe more later.

 

[TEW]

Appears to me from the map that Dive Copse Cem. was originally Lone Tree Cem.

The dressing station diary has the following extract for 21/6/1916.

Which says the cemetery is 200 yards from the dressing station which was 62d.J.24.b.8.6, the distance to the present day cemetery is more like 700 yards. No idea where the two men who died 21/6/16 were buried. The entry is initialed GHD which is Maj. Gilbert Henry Dive and his attention to detail in setting up the dressing station is extraordinary so the 200 yards is a slight concern but the 18th Division men buried 1/7/16 must have died at the dressing station.

Doesn't Essex Cemetery match up roughly with the Copse Cemetery on Tmapper?

Previously I said:

Quote

There should be 44? Concentrations from 'Essex Cemetery' (1918)

It should read (from CWGC) it contained the graves of 30 soldiers from the United Kingdom and three from Australia.

These 33 should be part of the 77 concentrations.

TEW

[LDT006]

2 hours ago, TEW said:

Doesn't Essex Cemetery match up roughly with the Copse Cemetery on Tmapper?

No, it looks like someone had to mark Copse Cemetery on the map and didn't know exactly where it was or was confused with the Lone tree marking.

I have marked everything we know on the map below and indeed the distance between the cemetery and the dressing station is more than 200m. 

Attached are also the extracts from the CWGC cemetery list for Essex Cemetery and Dive Copse.

Luc.