Plaque naming to N.Z.E.F.

[david barron]

I have a trio and plaque to J A McAuley NZEF. The naming on the plaque has been very neatly engraved rather than the usual embossed style. Has anyone come across this before? Is this a variation of official naming or a homemade job? 

[PhilB]

In a post by 303man:-

You will find some plaques that were officially engraved in this style and all to New Zealand Casualties.  New Zealand awarded plaques for wounds attributable to the war after the factory closed.  Defective plaques had the name chiselled off and the new detail engraved.

[david barron]

Thanks very much, that makes sense and is good to hear.

[303man]

Here is one of My Engraved plaques to a New Zealander. and 2 others from other collections both New Zealanders,  In most cases they are late issue or the original was misspelt (Common error) and a previously defective plaque held by the factory had the name chiselled off and then hand engraved as production had ceased.

[303man]

Mc Auley's Memorial Plaque was Ref No 507820 and dispatched on 21 Mar 1922. It was probably made in Oct/Nov 1921 like most of the NZ Plaques and sent in bulk to New Zealand for issue. This is surmised as most of the plaques to British Troops with 500,000 serial numbers were dispatched Oct, Nov, Dec 1921. 

Edited 30 November , 2022 by 303man

[david barron]

10 hours ago, 303man said:

Here is one of My Engraved plaques to a New Zealander. and 2 others from other collections both New Zealanders,  In most cases they are late issue or the original was misspelt (Common error) and a previously defective plaque held by the factory had the name chiselled off and then hand engraved as production had ceased.

Thank very much it's great to see others with the same naming style.

[david barron]

10 hours ago, 303man said:

Mc Auley's Memorial Plaque was Ref No 507820 and dispatched on 21 Mar 1922. It was probably made in Oct/Nov 1921 like most of the NZ Plaques and sent in bulk to New Zealand for issue. This is surmised as most of the plaques to British Troops with 500,000 serial numbers were dispatched Oct, Nov, Dec 1921. 

Thank you for that detail, I couldn't find any reference on his records to a replacement or late issue, so this ties in. My best guess is that there was a spelling mistake, and the original plaque was returned for renaming, in which case it wouldn't be recorded as either a replacement or late issue. A quick glance shows there are a number of different spellings of McAuley on the NZ roll (MacAulay, MacAuley, MacCauley, McAuley).

[303man]

Here is another engraved NZ Plaque, In his file is a note mentioning his name was incorrect but the medals had been accepted.

[david barron]

5 hours ago, 303man said:

Here is another engraved NZ Plaque, In his file is a note mentioning his name was incorrect but the medals had been accepted.

Great work, thank you, that ties in with my theory about a spelling mistake on the McAuley plaque.

[303man]

A quick question playing on a hunch is the Engraved McAuley plaque an Acton plaque numbered outside the like as per this picture.  

[david barron]

3 hours ago, 303man said:

A quick question playing on a hunch is the Engraved McAuley plaque an Acton plaque numbered outside the like as per this picture.  

Yes, it's an Acton plaque, numbered 15. I look forward to hearing your hunch!

[303man]

Side by side for comparison. Both are Acton Plaques. 

[david barron]

Thank you, the naming looks exactly the same to me. I was lead to believe all NZEF plaques were Acton made. What was your theory mentioned in the last post?

[303man]

I have looked at my NZ Plaques all bar one are Acton Made.  The plate Numbers are 2 unmarked then 6,7,8,9 & 16 The plaques were made on a circular table that rotated bit like a lazy Susan see attached picture.  So it looks like the NZ Plaques were done as a batch at Acton with only odd ones made at Woolwich possibly for those missing presumed dead or other admin reasons.  The metal nameplates mentioned were held in place by small magnets on the mould the second picture is a plaque cast without the name plate in place and you can just see the small circles where the magnets were.   

Edited 9 December , 2022 by 303man

[david barron]

That's fascinating, thank you for for posting this. 

[NZMR]

Hi,

Having researched the Memorial Plaque and Scroll with respect to the NZEF, I have yet to find a single reference to plaques being officially erased and re-engraved. I have been through files held at Archives New Zealand and have a good understanding of how Memorial Plaques and Scrolls were administered in this country, and at no point is engraving mentioned.

The subject of engraved plaques has been discussed here before, and on the British Medals Forum, and the theory that New Zealand plaques were officially altered in this way is also a statement of fact in Howard Williamson's Great War Collectors Companion, Vol. 2.

So, for it to be stated categorically that New Zealand officially renamed plaques, there must be some supporting documentation. Does anyone have the reference that does this?

Regards

Phil

[303man]

Documents in the National Archives mention that the plaque factory cannot stay open indefinitely and that some will be retained for engraving as required, It also mentions using defectively named plaques. Problem is some documents were filed under MEMORIAL PLAGUE FACTORY they are fragmented and cover much trivia.  New Zealand awarded Plaques for deaths attributable to the war for a far longer period than the other dominions into the 30's by then the factory had closed. 

Edited 14 December , 2022 by 303man

[303man]

Starter for 10:

ADM 1/8562/186 Memorial Plaque and Scroll for issue with letter signed by HM the King to Next of Kin of those killed in Great War 1919

CO 323/807/39 Gift of Memorial Plaque and Scroll to next of kin of fallen officers and men: dispatch of first scrolls with accompanying letters and notification of press communiqué; includes parliamentary question from Mr Hurd regarding progress in the completion of memorial scrolls and plaques directed to the Secretary of State for War, and the reply of Captain Guest. 1919 June-1919 Oct

CO 323/829/5 Presentation of a memorial plaque to the next of kin of members of the Mercantile Marine who lost their lives through enemy action: notification of approval of the King and request for attention to be given to proposal submitted by next of kin of various colonies, protectorates and dominions. 1920 Aug-1920 Sept

CO 323/829/31 Memorial plagues and scrolls for the Mercantile Marine: statement outlining processes to be followed in self governing dominions and notification of forwarded regulations and forms of application for dissemination to colonial governments; includes printed copies of 'Mercantile Marine Memorial Plaque and Scroll', Notice No 19. 1920 Dec-1921 Jan

CO 323/838/38 Memorial plaque and scroll: states relative paragraph of regulations is cancelled; paragraph quoted to be substituted; includes a printed copy of the memorial plaque and scroll regulations. Original Correspondence From: War Office. Folio(s): 296-307 1920 Sept 30
CO 323/838/60 Memorial plaques and scrolls: information that all scrolls have been inscribed in respect of members of dominions and colonial forces, and request that any additional names be forwarded; scrolls for dominion troops have been completed and despatched to the appropriate dominion colonies. 1920 Nov 19

CO 323/842/75 Supply of memorial plaques: supply of plaques to the War Office and Colonial Office request for further supply for distribution to colonial governments. Original Correspondence From: Memorial Plaque Factory, Acton W3. Folio(s): 649-651 1920 Jan 23

CO 323/843/73 Supply of memorial plaques: provision of one dozen plaques for distribution to colonial governments. Original Correspondence From: Memorial Plaque Factory, Acton W3. Folio(s): 692-695 1920 Mar 23

EXT 5/14 1 item extracted from MT 9/1891. Example of a Memorial Plaque (for Robert James Channel) awarded to the next-of-kin of Merchant Seamen who died during World War I 1920-1929

MT 9/1891 Deaths (Code 32): Memorial Plaque and Scroll - Issue 1920-1929

MUN 4/3482 NATIONAL FACTORIES: Memorial Plaque Factory, Acton: miscellaneous requirements 1919 June 23-1920 Feb. 4

T 161/5 MONUMENTS AND MEMORIALS: Memorial plaque for members of the Mercantile Marine killed during war 1920 June 12-July 19

T 161/161 STATIONERY. Copyright: Reproduction of miniature copies by Wright & Son of Memorial Plaque; Infringement of copyright. 1922 Mar 6-Apr 12

WO 32/4677 MEMORIALS AND GRAVES: Memorial Plaque and Scroll (Code 36D): Design of Plaque and Scroll to be issued as a personal memorial to the relatives of officers and men who fell in the War 1918

[NZMR]

Hi 303man,

Thanks very much for the replies - much appreciated. What I am inferring from your post is that, apparently, New Zealand continued to issue plaques after the end of the qualification period, and after the closure of the factory. The factory had produced either unnamed, or had retained defective plaques so that when application was made by New Zealand in the 1930's, engraved plaques were issued. Is that correct?

My own research has shown that NZ Defence Department strictly adhered to the imperial regulations governing the issue of the Memorial Plaque, and only accepted verified deaths from war service that occured up to 31st August 1928, being seven years from the official end of the war. Following a 1928 advertising campaign encouraging relatives to apply because the closure of the factory was imminent, all plaques issued in favour of these cases (1202 individuals) came direct from the factory and were standard, cast-named, plaques. These were all (apart from 16) received in 1929, with issues beginning in early 1930. None of these have proven to be engraved - and I wouldn't expect them to be.

I have no record of any subsequent claims being accepted after the factory closed - in fact officials are on record as stating there will be no replacement plaques, for example, because the factory is closed.

Do you have examples of plaques being claimed beyond that stipulated by the regulations and reaching into the 1930's?

Regards

Phil

 

[303man]

8 hours ago, NZMR said:

Hi 303man,

Thanks very much for the replies - much appreciated. What I am inferring from your post is that, apparently, New Zealand continued to issue plaques after the end of the qualification period, and after the closure of the factory. The factory had produced either unnamed, or had retained defective plaques so that when application was made by New Zealand in the 1930's, engraved plaques were issued. Is that correct?

My own research has shown that NZ Defence Department strictly adhered to the imperial regulations governing the issue of the Memorial Plaque, and only accepted verified deaths from war service that occured up to 31st August 1928, being seven years from the official end of the war. Following a 1928 advertising campaign encouraging relatives to apply because the closure of the factory was imminent, all plaques issued in favour of these cases (1202 individuals) came direct from the factory and were standard, cast-named, plaques. These were all (apart from 16) received in 1929, with issues beginning in early 1930. None of these have proven to be engraved - and I wouldn't expect them to be.

I have no record of any subsequent claims being accepted after the factory closed - in fact officials are on record as stating there will be no replacement plaques, for example, because the factory is closed.

Do you have examples of plaques being claimed beyond that stipulated by the regulations and reaching into the 1930's?

Regards

Phil

 

Thanks very much for the replies - much appreciated. What I am inferring from your post is that, apparently, New Zealand continued to issue plaques after the end of the qualification period, and after the closure of the factory. The factory had produced either unnamed, or had retained defective plaques so that when application was made by New Zealand in the 1930's, engraved plaques were issued. Is that correct? 

Or incorrectly named ones were engraved as the factory was no longer able to re cast.  In all cases of these NZ plaques that have been engraved their names are spelt wrong at some stage in their records Corkill is on his docs as Corkhill, McAuley is on his docs as McCauley, Geddes Todd was an Alias.  Trewheela mentions in his records medals are incorrectly named but accepted. 

[303man]

In the Case of G G Todd I expect his plaque was initially issued under his Alias GG Wilson and the Family wanted his real name.

 

[NZMR]

Hi,

I guess the point of my posts is to challenge what is being posted and published with regard to the Memorial Plaque as administered by the New Zealand Defence Force. The comment in Howard Williamson's book that "New Zealand did not have a cut-off date for casualties" is absolutely incorrect. The official cut-off date was 31st August 1928, and there were no plaques issued for anyone in New Zealand who died of war-related injuries/illness after that date. This myth that New Zealand just kept on issueing plaques well after the factory has closed circa 1930 then seems to give support to the claim that New Zealand also issued engraved plaques - that, too, is not at all correct. It is true that New Zealand arranged for over 1200 plaques to be claimed in 1929, but that is all within the regulations and was simply a desire to get the families their due memorials. Between 1921 and 1928 only 80 applications for Memorial Plaques had been received in favour of NZEF servicepeople, hence the push to get more claims in before the factory closed.

The regulations state that the name the person enlisted under "will be strictly adhered to", so there was no regulatory imperative for the New Zealand Defence Department to go against this and start engraving whatever name the next-of-kin advised some years later. In the case of Geddes Todd, for example, he enlisted under the alias of George Wilson, but as he did not change his name prior to his death, his plaque would have been issued in the name "under which he fought and died" i.e. George Wilson. As it stands, there is nothing official to show the Defence Department started re-engraving plaques to satisfy the family's wishes and thereby deliberately breach the regulations governing them.

Just where these engraved plaques originated from remains a mystery in my opinion - but I certainly don't think the word 'official' can used, in the absence of anything official to explain them.

Regards

Phil

 

[303man]

The regulations are specific in stating that the plaque will be issued under the name the soldier attested under, however that is not 100% true. I have examples that go against this, likewise the regulations state, no plaques would be issued to soldiers Executed, but we know one at least was.  I hear what you are saying but with most of the official documents regarding manufacture etc lost we will never know for sure.  I have been collecting and researching plaques over 45 years and have never found a plaque engraved in this style to an British Casualty.

[303man]

Under UNCLAIMED AND UNDELIVERED PLAQUES ANS SCROLLS, is this:

It is necessary for the plaques and scrolls to be inscribed in these cases as if claims for them are received after the closing down of the factory, it may not be possible to have plaques specially cast.

[david barron]

Is this from the achieves in Kew? Do you have a copy of the document please?