morrisc8 Posted 26 November , 2022 Share Posted 26 November , 2022 (edited) FRANCO ENGLISH FRONT ALLIED SOLDIERS AT REST WW1 PHOTO from my collection. British troops ? with French troops. Some of the British troops have felt hats and one has a badge on his arm and a rum jar on the ground with troops in the background. Could they be from Australia or NZ or even from the USA. Edited 26 November , 2022 by morrisc8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeignGong Posted 26 November , 2022 Share Posted 26 November , 2022 The man front centre has a slouch hat between his legs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrisc8 Posted 26 November , 2022 Author Share Posted 26 November , 2022 49 minutes ago, ForeignGong said: The man front centre has a slouch hat between his legs I think some in the background left have them as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 27 November , 2022 Share Posted 27 November , 2022 11 hours ago, morrisc8 said: I think some in the background left have them as well Yes, I agree, good spotting. A larger image would be most helpful, as there are a mixture of Adrian, Brodie, slouch hats and forage caps visible. The man standing in front of the cow almost seems to be wearing a fez. Thanks to @ForeignGong I can now see there are multiple Australian soldiers with slouch hats. The image is indistinct but it appears that most (all?) of them have the brim down. This was confined to the Third Australian Division and helps identify a possible location. In May 1918 the Third AIF Division was in the region of Villers-Bretonneux, part of the front line ready to oppose what was thought to be 54 divisions readying for attack. The British Sector ended around the Villers-Bretonneux - Bois l'Abbe and the French Sector continued. The Third Division AIF were the right-most British Army division and did much liaison with the French. The 11th Brigade unit war diary recorded: The 3rd Australian Division now has the honour of holding the sector junctioning with the French & has pride of place “Right of the Line”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrisc8 Posted 27 November , 2022 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2022 Took a close up with my phone then cleaned them up on my pc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrisc8 Posted 27 November , 2022 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2022 Took this one they have caps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battle of loos Posted 27 November , 2022 Share Posted 27 November , 2022 good morning, This soldier is a gunner. identifiable thanks to its lookouts. michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 27 November , 2022 Share Posted 27 November , 2022 22 minutes ago, battle of loos said: identifiable thanks to its lookouts. Lookouts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 27 November , 2022 Share Posted 27 November , 2022 It would appear the <<mot juste>> is the <<passepoil>> on the artilleryman's <<calot>> Rather than finding fault, I find it preferable to also come up with a proposed solution. Still, different strokes for different folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 27 November , 2022 Share Posted 27 November , 2022 A quick and dirty google search failed to materialise a French Army forage cap table. I daresay there is one in the old Liliane and Fred Funcken publications. The following thread is likely to be of interesthttps://forum.pages14-18.com/viewtopic.php?p=552690&hilit=calot+artillerie+passepoil#p552690 Here is a link to a reproduction WW1 infantry forage caphttps://www.heritage-militaire.com/en/hats-and-accessories/1471-french-infantry-calot-1914.html Here's a link to a surviving WW1 artillery officer's forage caphttps://www.relicmilitaria.com/product/france-great-war-officers-calot-of-the-6th-regiment-dartillerierailway-heavy-siege-artillery-circa-1916-17/ Clearly there's a difference between the two, but I think a native speaker would best explain it. Whilst I am of the opinion that the target language of a forum should be used, be it english for this forum, soit dans la langue de Molière sur forum pages14-19 cité au-dessus, it makes sense when using a technical term to include the original term, and also the word that you think it is in the target language. These terms are very technical, and do not have a direct translation in a lot of cases. Mistakes do happen. I was insistent that a French company adhered in meeting the requirement to provide administrative strawberries. We got there in the end. To this end, of lost in translation, can we interest anyone in a book about a hairy pocket? Probably not. Can we interest anyone in a book, from the "pocket" range, about "les Poilus" which is endorsed by a museum, well that's a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 27 November , 2022 Share Posted 27 November , 2022 Here's a grainy screenshot of a Digger, two French gunners and a cow, to aid identification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 27 November , 2022 Share Posted 27 November , 2022 So, the word in French that appeared earlier, <<passepoil>>, translates as "piping". Assistance from elsewhere has steered me to this listing of piping colours associated with each arm of the Armée Françaisehttp://www.lesfrancaisaverdun-1916.fr/uniforme-passepoil.htm Sourced via the following, where Morris C8 and Michel also participate.https://forum.pages14-18.com/viewtopic.php?p=569613 Whilst an english language search failed to deliver the goods for WW1, it did provide similar info in relation to the First Indochina War 1946-1954 http://www.rolling-thunder.org.uk/rtFMindosidehats.htm It's not the greatest quality photo, but perhaps there could be something else to distinctively identify which arm of service those polius are serving in. Here's hoping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battle of loos Posted 28 November , 2022 Share Posted 28 November , 2022 On 11/27/2022 at 12:30 PM, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: Lookouts? On 11/27/2022 at 4:03 PM, Keith_history_buff said: It would appear the <<mot juste>> is the <<passepoil>> on the artilleryman's <<calot>> Rather than finding fault, I find it preferable to also come up with a proposed solution. Still, different strokes for different folks. good eveing, the good word is "Gaiters". sorry for the bad translete. michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 28 November , 2022 Share Posted 28 November , 2022 3 minutes ago, battle of loos said: word is "Gaiters". Guetteurs = drug runner's lookouts!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 28 November , 2022 Share Posted 28 November , 2022 From guêtres to something else. There's a romanticised portrayal of a "watchman" (perhaps sentinel is a better choice of word in english) wearing a light blue shama, but that's a deviation from this thread. (I'll send you the WW1 illustration of Le guetteur by Lucien Jonas, I was unaware of a film of this name from 10 years ago.) The parallel thread on pages14-18 does suggest that it is leggings/leather chaps, as opposed to the forage caps, that are indicative of artillery drivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 28 November , 2022 Share Posted 28 November , 2022 1 hour ago, battle of loos said: good eveing, the good word is "Gaiters". Thank you Michel, That makes perfect sense now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 1 December , 2022 Share Posted 1 December , 2022 Mate, I have a problem with them being 3rd Aust Div soldiers. The shoulder patches I see are not the right shape The third Div's were Oval, while these look more like the 5th Aust Div (rectangles) Of cause they maybe Artillery but again 5th Div had these rectangles Just to follow the 1st Div had rectangles but laying down 2nd Div Dimonds 4th Div circles. I agree, more likely around the VB area/ Ameins in 1918 S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 1 December , 2022 Share Posted 1 December , 2022 Hi Steve, Could you point out some of these shoulder patches in the OP's original photo? It's a good crosscheck (I still have my grandfather's patch) but I'm not sure if there is enough fidelity in the photo. It's a bit like those NCIS episodes where they see a grey car drive by a dark street in torrential rain and they say "we'll get the tech guys to enhance the photo". Ten minutes later out comes the full license plate. Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 1 December , 2022 Share Posted 1 December , 2022 On 26/11/2022 at 13:20, morrisc8 said: FRANCO ENGLISH FRONT ALLIED SOLDIERS AT REST WW1 PHOTO from my collection. British troops ? with French troops. Some of the British troops have felt hats and one has a badge on his arm and a rum jar on the ground with troops in the background. Could they be from Australia or NZ or even from the USA. Oddly I cannot see any weapons. Are they prisoners? Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrisc8 Posted 1 December , 2022 Author Share Posted 1 December , 2022 1 hour ago, Howard said: Oddly I cannot see any weapons. Are they prisoners? Howard There is a guy with a SMLE on the right in the background i think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 1 December , 2022 Share Posted 1 December , 2022 1 hour ago, Howard said: Oddly I cannot see any weapons. Are they prisoners? Howard Given the cow that is being fed, I assumed that this was to the rear and arms need not be in evidence? Of course there is that WW2 film with Fernandel, 'La Vache et Le Prisonier'......?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 1 December , 2022 Share Posted 1 December , 2022 Bill, Yes mate, the two front men sitting (one on the ground in front and the man next to the Frenchman on the seat. Their patches can just be made out and they appear to rectangles (see close ups by Keith History) While its hard to make out, but more like rectangles then the Oval of the 3rd Div? S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrisc8 Posted 6 December , 2022 Author Share Posted 6 December , 2022 Close up of photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 7 December , 2022 Share Posted 7 December , 2022 @stevenbecker, that new photo by the OP clearly highlights the patches on the Australian soldiers. I now agree, they are certainly not 3rd Division. The Fifth Division AIF was in the same area at the same time and if the patches are a single colour, they may well be Engineers or Signallers (Signal Engineers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 7 December , 2022 Share Posted 7 December , 2022 Bill, As morris shows the photo with the soldier next to the Frenchman does have a Signaler qual patch on his sleve. Also the first soldier next to the Tree, is wearing a British uniform, not Australian (see shiny buttons) as we use to say would draw every sniper for miles. So we looks like having all types here (French, British and Aussies) taking a break in the rear area before the Big push S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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