Rifle & timeframe

[5thBatt]

 Help with this please, what model of rifle & time frame for this photo 

[Chasemuseum]

The field equipment is leather equipment P1914. This was used from 1915 to the end of the war but most commonly in 1915 & 1916.

The rifle appears to be a long Lee Enfield. The quality of the photo is too poor to be specific. Could be Lee Metford Mk II, (adopted 1892) Lee Enfield Mk I (adopted 1895) or Mk I* (adopted about 1891), or an upgraded Lee Enfield Mk I* to a charger loading Lee Enfield. The bayonet is the P1888 bayonet Mk I (second pattern, with two screws in the grips instead of 3). It does not have the oil hole in the grips of the Mk II bayonet.

This combination of rifle, bayonet and field equipment was common to recruit training in the UK through the entire war.

[Spaceman]

It may be pushing the resolution of the picture a bit but the rifle looks as though it may be fitted with an 8-round magazine which projected about 1/2" below the bottom of the trigger guard compared with the 10-round magazine which was more or less flush with the bottom of the guard. The 8-round magazine was originally fitted to the Mk I and I* Magazine Lee Metford (MLM) with the Mk II receiver body re-designed to take the wider 10-round magazine. I have had a look at Skennerton's book on the MLM and Magazine Lee Enfield (MLE) but it doesn't provide any information on whether any of the 8-round MLM's were converted to an MLE.  Either way, there were probably quite a few old MLM Mk I* rifles still in store by the outbreak of WW! and it may not be surprising that they were made use of during some recruit training.

[Pete_C]

1 hour ago, Spaceman said:

It may be pushing the resolution of the picture a bit but the rifle looks as though it may be fitted with an 8-round magazine which projected about 1/2" below the bottom of the trigger guard compared with the 10-round magazine which was more or less flush with the bottom of the guard. The 8-round magazine was originally fitted to the Mk I and I* Magazine Lee Metford (MLM) with the Mk II receiver body re-designed to take the wider 10-round magazine. I have had a look at Skennerton's book on the MLM and Magazine Lee Enfield (MLE) but it doesn't provide any information on whether any of the 8-round MLM's were converted to an MLE.  Either way, there were probably quite a few old MLM Mk I* rifles still in store by the outbreak of WW! and it may not be surprising that they were made use of during some recruit training.

Yes, I think you’re right regarding the magazine. Further evidence of Metford as opposed to Enfield is the sling attachment from the magazine housing swivel to the front band. The early pattern Metfords were deployed for drill purposes only, not musketry, which likely puts the photo early 1915. 

Pete

Edited 24 November , 2022 by Pete_C

[MrEd]

11 hours ago, Spaceman said:

It may be pushing the resolution of the picture a bit but the rifle looks as though it may be fitted with an 8-round magazine which projected about 1/2" below the bottom of the trigger guard compared with the 10-round magazine which was more or less flush with the bottom of the guard. The 8-round magazine was originally fitted to the Mk I and I* Magazine Lee Metford (MLM) with the Mk II receiver body re-designed to take the wider 10-round magazine. I have had a look at Skennerton's book on the MLM and Magazine Lee Enfield (MLE) but it doesn't provide any information on whether any of the 8-round MLM's were converted to an MLE.  Either way, there were probably quite a few old MLM Mk I* rifles still in store by the outbreak of WW! and it may not be surprising that they were made use of during some recruit training.

Is that the single stack magazine?

[Chasemuseum]

47 minutes ago, MrEd said:

Is that the single stack magazine?

yes. The LM Mk II introduced the staggered arrangement

[MrEd]

12 minutes ago, Chasemuseum said:

yes. The LM Mk II introduced the staggered arrangement

thanks, a feature i knew about but hadnt thought would be visually different (having not handled anything pre-CLLE) thank you

[Spaceman]

The 8-round MLM Mk I* magazine sticks down quite a bit below the trigger guard as shown in the top rifle compared with the later 10-round magazine shown in the lower MLE rifle. 

[MrEd]

Thank you spaceman