Questions on a boy soldier's service.

[Skipman]

Richard Van Emden says in his book 'Boy Soldiers says:

 

"Another new War Office Instruction (No. 1905) was issued automatically superseding Instruction 1186. Much of the new instruction remained the same - indeed, 1905 was in essence a refinement of what had gone before, except for one key feature. All boys under the age of seventeen would be sent home, irrespective of whether they were willing to stay in France. This stipulation was repeated down the chain of command, although the First Army's Routine Order of 20th October was even more explicit and no room for negotiation or interpretation. "All soldiers under 17 years of age .... are to be given no option of remaining in this country." In another alteration to previous rules, those aged between seventeen and eighteen and a half would be allowed to go home although, as before, their removal from overseas service would be dependent on whether they were willing to go or not. If they decided to remain abroad, their services would be utilized behind the firing line, that is, out of harm's way, most being sent to one of the Army Schools of Instruction. Those over eighteen and a half were given no option but to remain in France and were posted to a training unit in readiness for their return to the front once they passed their next birthday."

 

On the 20th of October 1916 when this came into effect, a 1/6th Black Watch soldier I'm researching was 18 years and 2 months old. He landed with 1/6th Black Watch on 2/5/1915 The next information on this soldier is that he went back to France as part of a draft intended for the 8th Battalion, South Staffordshire Regiment on the 1st April 1918 and ended up with the 2nd Essex.

 

Question 1. Could this soldier possibly have fought at Beaumont Hamel on 13/11/1916 (I have no information that he did, just curious)

 

Question 2. This soldier at some point was in the 'Salvage Corps' when might that have been given he was almost certainly in England before 1/4/1918.

 

Question 3. What is the latest this soldier could have remained in France with the 1/6th Black Watch given his age (born 20/8/1898).

 

Mike

[FROGSMILE]

On 23/11/2022 at 20:26, Skipman said:

 

Richard Van Emden says in his book 'Boy Soldiers says:

 

"Another new War Office Instruction (No. 1905) was issued automatically superseding Instruction 1186. Much of the new instruction remained the same - indeed, 1905 was in essence a refinement of what had gone before, except for one key feature. All boys under the age of seventeen would be sent home, irrespective of whether they were willing to stay in France. This stipulation was repeated down the chain of command, although the First Army's Routine Order of 20th October was even more explicit and no room for negotiation or interpretation. "All soldiers under 17 years of age .... are to be given no option of remaining in this country." In another alteration to previous rules, those aged between seventeen and eighteen and a half would be allowed to go home although, as before, their removal from overseas service would be dependent on whether they were willing to go or not. If they decided to remain abroad, their services would be utilized behind the firing line, that is, out of harm's way, most being sent to one of the Army Schools of Instruction. Those over eighteen and a half were given no option but to remain in France and were posted to a training unit in readiness for their return to the front once they passed their next birthday."

 

On the 20th of October 1916 when this came into effect, a 1/6th Black Watch soldier I'm researching was 18 years and 2 months old. He landed with 1/6th Black Watch on 2/5/1915 The next information on this soldier is that he went back to France as part of a draft intended for the 8th Battalion, South Staffordshire Regiment on the 1st April 1918 and ended up with the 2nd Essex.

 

Question 1. Could this soldier possibly have fought at Beaumont Hamel on 13/11/1916 (I have no information that he did, just curious)

 

Question 2. This soldier at some point was in the 'Salvage Corps' when might that have been given he was almost certainly in England before 1/4/1918.

 

Question 3. What is the latest this soldier could have remained in France with the 1/6th Black Watch given his age (born 20/8/1898).

 

Mike

1.  It is quite feasible that he saw action Mike, especially if his true age wasn’t known by his unit at the time, which you haven’t made clear. There are numerous cases where underage soldiers are known to have been action, including the one now known to have been the youngest.

2.  A ‘Salvage Corps’ was formed from men of the Labour Corps (LC), but its beginnings were in Spring 1916, when formation level ‘Salvage Sections’ were established by infantry labour units.  The following year salvage became a role within the Divisional Employment Companies of the LC, and by 1918 a widespread and sophisticated organisation was in place across the Western Front.  In January 1919 this work was accelerated both in F&F and at Home, with the latter having established several dedicated companies to receive salvage from France in depots near to the ports.  It meant that collection, dispatch and disposal in Britain was handled by the LC.  Incidentally Salvage Corps were not a new idea and had existed within Civic Municipal Services in the 1880s/1890s.

3. To establish the answer you would need to know if his true age had been declared to his unit.  By that stage of the war I’ve no doubt that his battalion would have followed the laid down disposal for those underage.

Edited 28 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Skipman]

Many thanks FROGSMILE. That's very helpful and will help to figure out, as close as I can, his service. I do not know if his true age had been declared. I do know he joined the 6th Black Watch in March 1914 when he was not yet 16 years old. Not sure how he managed that and no evidence of being a bugler/drummer/piper.

 

Mike

[FROGSMILE]

On 28/11/2022 at 13:23, Skipman said:

Many thanks FROGSMILE. That's very helpful and will help to figure out, as close as I can, his service. I do not know if his true age had been declared. I do know he joined the 6th Black Watch in March 1914 when he was not yet 16 years old. Not sure how he managed that and no evidence of being a bugler/drummer/piper.

 

Mike

All the [edit] ‘regular army’ pre war Boy Entrants (musicians and artisans) serving under the then prevailing terms and conditions were ordered to report to regular regimental depots, where they trained until coming of age.  It’s likely then that he was one of those enlisted via a false statement at attestation, which we now know was an extraordinary number, far more than originally thought.  One of the  forum members (I cannot recall offhand who) has carried out a very useful study of just one unit that comes to a quite stark conclusion.  I also understand that Richard Van Emden has revisited his earlier work and revised some of the details.  See also: https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-articles/boy-soldiers-of-the-great-war-revisited-by-richard-van-emden/

Edited 29 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Skipman]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

All the pre war Boy Entrants (musicians and artisans) serving under the then prevailing terms and conditions were ordered to report to regular regimental depots, where they trained until coming of age.  It’s likely then that he was one of those enlisted via a false statement at attestation, which we now know was an extraordinary number, far more than originally thought.  One of the  forum members (I cannot recall offhand who) has carried out a very useful study of just one unit that comes to a quite stark conclusion.  I also understand that Richard Van Emden has revisited his earlier work and revised some of the details.  See also: https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-articles/boy-soldiers-of-the-great-war-revisited-by-richard-van-emden/

Thanks again. Very useful. Richard Van Emden has such a wonderful writing style.

Mike

[kenf48]

As the 6th were a TF Bn. he could legitimately enlist for Home Service at seventeen. 

The TF were fairly relaxed as to age, if he declared he was seventeen in March 1914 then that was his 'army age'. In 1914 some TF units (as noted by van Emden) allowed soldiers as young as seventeen to embark with their battalion on active service.  The regular Army set the limit for active service overseas at nineteen. Therefore the first WO instruction regarding TF soldiers was issued in February 1915, invariably young soldiers returned to the UK under this instruction went into the second line of their Battalion.

Clearly your man's embarkation to France post dates this instruction which goes some way to illustrating its effectiveness.

[Skipman]

Thanks kenf48 His Mic has 2/6th Royal Highlanders the roll also has 2/6th though they never went to France.

Mike