Test Pilots in the Great War

[Grid]

Have any books been written or articles about or by test/experimental pilots in the Great War? I'm looking for books, articles, websites etc.

Is anyone aware of lists of test pilots. I think that some British airfields have memorials dedicated to test pilots killed during the war. Is that correct?

Any assistance greatly appreciated.

Adam

Edited 20 November , 2022 by Grid

[PRC]

For the UK try https://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/memorial/search.php?year1=1910&year2=1919

Further details for specific incidents may then be available on the likes of
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/
http://www.rcawsey.co.uk/Accindex.htm
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/

The ones in the UK are likely to have resulted in a coroners inquest so worth checking out a source like the British Newspapers Archive, (subscription, but if you live in the UK it may be free at your local library), and the appropriate subscription level of the likes of FindMyPast \ Ancestry.

Does your remit extend to pilots testing the first production models? One of the local casualties  I have was a senior pilot working at an Aircraft Acceptance Park attached to an assembly factory, who took it upon himself to test fly the first batch of an upgraded model. It folded up on his first flight in one and spiralled into the ground.

Cheers,
Peter

Hope that gets you started,
Peter

[Grid]

Hi Peter,

This is in fact an excellent start!

I was wondering do you knew of any test pilots of the caliber and experience of Clive Collett (New Zealand) that are of British or American birth. For comparative purposes I'm looking for a British and an American who might have had test/experimental experience as well as some frontline line work.

Obviously someone notable/famous would be ideal but someone for whom there might be a log book and coverage in other documents would work just as well. Of course, 'frontline' duties would include air defense duties against airships or aeroplanes.

See Collett here: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/265595 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_Franklyn_Collett

Once again thanks for you previous reply, it's given me something to go on.

Adam

Edited 21 November , 2022 by Grid

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Grid said:

I was wondering do you knew of any test pilots of the caliber and experience of Clive Collett (New Zealand) that are of British or American birth. For comparative purposes I'm looking for a British and an American who might have had test/experimental experience as well as some frontline line work.

Sorry Adam, my interest is the impact of the two world wars on the county of Norfolk, so I've needed to know a little about a lot,  rather than gain a knowledge of anything in any depth.  I came across the thunder and lightnings website many years ago while trying to find out more about a WW2 pilot from Norfolk who subsequently died as a civilian test pilot, so have never used it for the Great War period.

There are some knowledgeable people on this forum and The Aerodrome who may be able to assist - I'm surprised more haven't piled in.

Cheers,
Peter

[Grid]

Thanks for that Peter.

A lot of experiential work was done at the Orfordness Experimental Station (aka Orford Ness) on the Suffolk coast with gun and bombsights, machine gun mountings, and incendiary rounds etc. (see attached), while prototype machines were evaluated close by at Martlesham Heath, so there must have been plenty of airmen involved but none have appeared here in the discussion. I guess the RNAS has its own equivalent test and experimental facilities.

In the USA this kind of work was done at McCook Field, Dayton, Ohio. There must have been a French equivalent, with the commiserate number of aircrew involved.

I had thought their would be a few names that might be generated by the inquiry, but perhaps nothing has been done on this area. Will try The Aerodrome. Thanks for posting reply.

Best

Adam

 

[PRC]

7 minutes ago, Grid said:

A lot of experiential work was done at the Orfordness Experimental Station (aka Orford Ness) on the Suffolk coast with gun and bombsights, machine gun mountings, and incendiary rounds etc.

A forum search for "Orfordness" and "Orford Ness" produces quite a few matches, so there may be something of use to you there.

I'm still a bit hazy on what stage in the process you are looking at. The Test and Experimental Pilots in the British system for aircraft development as I understand it would be a mix of civilians and serving pilots on secondment to the manufacturers. A check of Wikipedia articles and the like on the major aircraft types may turn up some named examples of test pilots like Harry Hawker, the chief test pilot at Sopwith https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Hawker

The Wikipedia page for the R.E.8 for example shows the first prototype being flow by an F.W. Goodden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Aircraft_Factory_R.E.8

You'll then have the pilots who'd be accepting and testing the initial production run, and others trying out enhancements of the kind on the page you've posted and validating field modifications for wider adoption.

So possibly several groups who might be termed to be doing test or experimental work, probably with minimal overlap of personnel.

The piece you've posted on Collett reads like he was serving on an operational squadron at the time of his death. Nothing to indicate he was asked to assess the operational capabilities of the enemy aircraft on behalf of the RFC \ Air Ministry, so he may have taken the opportunity to increase his own personal knowledge \ experience on a one-off basis but not what I would think of as experimental or test pilot work. But like I said I'm used to work at a less detailed level and you may well have a criteria in mind that encapsulates the like of Hawker and Collett.

Collett's experience did remind me that when Flight Magazine had their archive available for free, (sadly now removed), there were a number of wartime article from both world wars of the technical and operational capabilities of captured enemy aircraft. I just remember being fascinated as to how accurate they were or was it a question of showing off we know what you know, etc. Whether they mentioned the allied pilots who flew them to glean this information or included pictures of them I must confess I didn't notice.

Archive.org I believe has some copies of the magazine, The Aeroplane. Unfortunately the transcription has been done by machine, but the ones they have covering April & May & June 1918 include obituaries like this one:-

TATTON. — Capt. Eric Hudson Tatton, East Yorks. Regt. attd. R.A.F., was the youngest of the five sons of Mr. and Mrs Tatton, of Edgware, and joined the U'.P.S. Brigade in Sept. 1 91 4. He received his commission in the East Yorkshire Regl in Jan., 1915, and was gazetted lieutenant in the same year. H saw active service in Egypt and then in France, taking part ii the offensive on July 1st, 1916. Subsequently he transferred t( the R.F.C, and, obtaining his "wings," he was again a the front for eight months' active service. In July, 191 7, he wa sent back to England, and in August was gazetted captain an< flight-commander. Until March he was acting as test pilot a aerodromes in England. On March 30th Capt. Tatton returne to the front, and was killed in action on April 20th, aged 23.

A search for "experimental" in the same collection produces 60 matches - many referring to both experimental development work, and the setting up of experimental sections of the new Air Force.

It also gives obituaries like this one:-

LUTYENS.— Lt. L. F. Derek Lutyens, R.A.F., whose death was announced last week, was educated at Elstree and Alden- ham. and enlisted in the Royal Fusiliers (10th Battalion) in August, 1914, shortly afterwards obtaining his commission in the same regiment. He went te France with his regiment in 1915, and remained there as bombing officer until after the battles of Pozieres and La Boiselle, when he transferred to the Royal Flying Corps. He fought many engagements as "observer," and was eventually appointed to an experimental squadron. The body of David Hugh Pinsent, a civilian observer, who was killed while flying with Lt. Lutyens on an experimental flight a week ago, was found on May 14th in the Basingstoke Canal.

https://archive.org/stream/aeroplan141918lond/aeroplan141918lond_djvu.txt

A search of archive.org and project gutenberg may turn up more.

Cheers,
Peter

[Airshipped]

Hi Adam,

Keith Ellis wrote a two-volume 'Testing to the Limits', which attempts to cover everything from 1910 onwards. Unfortunately it can't address the earliest years of aviation in any great detail, given the erratic nature of the documentary evidence etc.

By way of example it'd cover someone like Tom Sopwith but would miss out on someone like Charles Snow, (below credit TNA AIR 1/2020/204/310), who was awarded the AFC for his test flight work.

Bear in mind that although there are experimental pilots who were awarded the AFC in 1918/19, there were more plain vanilla test pilots, e.g. at wartime aircraft acceptance parks etc. Also many more AFC recipients for instructional duties, plus quite a few ferry pilots etc.

[J T Gray]

18 hours ago, PRC said:

The Wikipedia page for the R.E.8 for example shows the first prototype being flow by an F.W. Goodden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Aircraft_Factory_R.E.8

 

A forum search will throw up information on Frank Goodden, he's been discussed here before (I used to live in the road he'd lived on in North Oxford).  

[Red Gate]

There is this thread elsewhere on the Forum about James Chataway who was believed to be a test pilot for Vickers

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/299612-james-denys-perceval-chataway/

 

 

[MikeMeech]

On 22/11/2022 at 18:42, Grid said:

Thanks for that Peter.

A lot of experiential work was done at the Orfordness Experimental Station (aka Orford Ness) on the Suffolk coast with gun and bombsights, machine gun mountings, and incendiary rounds etc. (see attached), while prototype machines were evaluated close by at Martlesham Heath, so there must have been plenty of airmen involved but none have appeared here in the discussion. I guess the RNAS has its own equivalent test and experimental facilities.

In the USA this kind of work was done at McCook Field, Dayton, Ohio. There must have been a French equivalent, with the commiserate number of aircrew involved.

I had thought their would be a few names that might be generated by the inquiry, but perhaps nothing has been done on this area. Will try The Aerodrome. Thanks for posting reply.

Best

Adam

 

Hi

I have put some information on the Aerodrome Forum, but I shall repeat some of it here.

If you can get access to a copy of 'British Aviation, The Great War and Armistice' by Harald Penrose, Putnam 1969, you will find numerous 'test pilot' names in the text.  These are company test pilots, free lance test pilots, seconded RFC/RNAS or service pilots on rest also come up.  These include Harold Barnwell and Capt. Charles Gordon Bell of Vickers, Capt. B C Hucks of Airco, Capt. Vernon E G Busby of Handley Page, F A Lindemann of the Royal Aircraft Factory, Flt. Cdr. Peter Legh at Hendon, and Capt. A R Boeree RAF who test flew the DH.9A and Martinsyde F.4.  The Putnam aircraft company books do also include names of their test pilots in the text.

Mike

[MaureenE]

9 hours ago, MikeMeech said:

 

If you can get access to a copy of 'British Aviation, The Great War and Armistice' by Harald Penrose, Putnam 1969, you will find numerous 'test pilot' names in the text. 

Available online at Archive.org . (I can see it, not sure if everyone  is able to do so).

British Aviation the Great War and Armistice by Harald Penrose 1969  https://archive.org/details/britishaviationg0000hara/page/n5/mode/2up

Maureen

[FionaBam]

On 03/12/2022 at 22:09, MaureenE said:

Available online at Archive.org . (I can see it, not sure if everyone  is able to do so).

British Aviation the Great War and Armistice by Harald Penrose 1969  https://archive.org/details/britishaviationg0000hara/page/n5/mode/2up

Maureen

Works for me! Thank you 

[SteveML]

I have recently joined this forum and my thanks to those who maintain it.  

My grandfather was pilot in the Great War (Orly) and finished his career (at least in WW1 … he was later a major in WW2 as a “non-flying, flying officer” whatever that means, in Texas) as a test pilot.  His last assignment was as a test pilot in Orly.  I have paperwork to the effect.  To my mother’s knowledge (she is now 93 and has a good memory) she does not recall a posting at McCook airfield.  

Can anyone shed light here?  I have many photos of him next to and in WW1 planes, including one in flight.  

Thank you

[pierssc]

9 hours ago, SteveML said:

he was later a major in WW2 as a “non-flying, flying officer” whatever that means, in Texas) as a test pilot. 

Welcome to the forum.  We must not spoil your debut by going off the topic of WW1, but perhaps I may be excused if I quickly say that "Flying Officer" is a post-WW1 RAF rank, but a Flying Officer didn't necessarily do any flying.  Similarly a Pilot Officer was by no means always a pilot.  If you want to cover that part of his career people are normally pointed in the direction of a similar site to this called ww2talk.

I'm not clear as to what your question is but perhaps you might like to start a new thread in this section about him and put up some of the WW1 photos for our interest? 

 

Edited 18 September by pierssc

[Grid]

Hi SteveML, sounds really interesting. I would also recommend starting up a new thread with your grandfather's name and some pictures. Do you know what squadron he flew or was associated with in the Great War? A good number of Americans flew with La Fayette Escadrille, various RFC/RAF units and the United States Army Air Service (USAAS) etc. All the best. Adam 

[SteveML]

Thank you Adam.  I posted a new thread (at least I hope I did it right) "Test Pilots USA Air Corps" with a few photos and other information.  I am new to this forum and still learning (forgive any mistakes in protocol).  I suspect the term "test pilot" was very new in 1918.  In effect, all those brave pilots were testing their aircraft.  His name was Selwyn (Shifty) Woodard.  Where the "Shifty" comes from is a mystery, but given family stories, it fits.  Any observations based on my posting would be helpful.  I'm just trying to flesh out a career and life that ending in 1965.  Sadly, I was too young then to ask the right questions.  Steve