Help with finding photo of GG Victor Arthur Legge

[Emma V Legge]

Hello 👋 This is my first time within a war forum. I have been researching my GG Victor Arthur Legge (Born 1888 - Died August 31st 1916) who served with 1/5th hants howitzer battery as a driver. From what I have unearthed so far,  he is buried within Baghdad Northgate war cemetry (previously Afion cemetery where his body was exhumed from)  To date, after searching find my past & many other sites I've happened upon (some by accident) I have not been successful in my endeavors to obtain a photo of him. I haven't yet tried my local library, as I'm new to the area. Can someone please help me find him or guide me to any other possible sources?

Many many heartfelt thanks 

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. Your best bet for photos really is local newspapers of the time. 
 

[Emma V Legge]

Hello Michelle, & thank you. 

I will try searching local papers as suggested & update if I have any luck

Many thanks

[PRC]

2 hours ago, Emma V Legge said:

Victor Arthur Legge

Hi @Emma V Legge and welcome to the forum

Just need to check that name with you.

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission website simply lists him as 4535 Driver V.A. Legge, 1st/5th Hants Howitzer Bty, Royal Field Artillery.
But his service medal roll entry has him as Victor Alf Legge. (Ancestry).
His entry in Soldiers Died in the Great War, an HMSO publication from the 1920's created from information supplied by the Army shows him as Victor Alfred LEGG.
His entry in the Army Register of Soldiers Effects, a financial ledger rather than a list of his personal belongings, shows him as Victor Alfred Legge. (Ancestry or Fold3).
His Ministry of Pensions Card has him down as Victor Alfred Legge. (Transcript on Ancestry, Image on Fold 3).

His entry in the Register of Soldiers Effects will show who the balance of his pay and his war gratuity went, which can be a useful check that the right man has been identified.
Access to Fold3 for military records is currently free until midnight tonight, and I can see from the card that a pension was paid to his widow Ivy Kate, born 23th July 1888 and was paid for herself and their two children Percy Arthur, (born 26/10/1911) and Irene Phyllis, (born 28/04/1915). Handwritings a bit difficult to make out but looks like when the pension was awarded they were living at Stream(?) Farm, Churt(?), near Farnham, Surrey.

Does that sound familiar and the reference to Arthur is in error?

Cheers,
Peter

[Emma V Legge]

Hi Peter, wow! Yes, this is all very familiar. I have stream farm as the address. After speaking with my uncle, it seems he discovered that GG Victor often changed his middle name - to Alfred. (To avoid trouble, however, this is yet to be confirmed). My GG was actually called Inez Kate Conway (not Ivy, so a mis-spell) my grandfather was indeed Percy Arthur Legge. Born October 26th and his sister (although born Irene) went by her middle name of Phyllis (my mum has confirmed this) 

[Emma V Legge]

Victor also went by 'Legge' & later added an 'e' (although unsure why he would, unless again, to avoid trouble. I have no idea or further information on why he did this 

[charlie962]

I presume from what you have already told us that you are aware he was part of the British Garrison at Kut al Amara under siege from December 1915 until end of April 1916. When the Garrison surrendered on 29/4/16 he will have been taken into captivity and made that long trek via Baghdad to Asia Minor. Afion Kara Hissar, where he died, was the largest camp and had a brutal commandant. 

The Isle of Wight newspapers via IoW libraries would be best hope of a photo. You can subscribe direct to IoW County Press, if I remember correctly. 

Edited 13 November , 2022 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Here's a link to IWCP archives that I've found very useful in the past.

https://archive.iwcp.co.uk/

[charlie962]

Another possibility is the Henry Gallup photos held by the National Army Museum. 

Legge may not be named but probably lurks in one of them?

https://collection.nam.ac.uk/detail.php?acc=1987-01-70-100 

Legge landed at Basra 23/3/15 with the battery.

Edited 13 November , 2022 by charlie962

[charlie962]

There's something odd here. The Soldier's Effects record has him dying 24/5/16 aboard SS Julnar.

This was a boat on the Tigris that was captured by the Turkish in April 1916 when it made a heroic and famous dash up the river to try to get food to the beseiged Garrison.

It was subsequently used to ferry some of the more seriously ill/ wounded after surrender from Kut to Baghdad. Many died on that journey. 

But how could he die there and have a grave at Afion hundreds of miles away. There was definitely no transfer of bodies that far! The date for Afion is an end of month. May be coincidence but strikes me as a possible end date.

Needs more work. I may have more but my files currently inaccessible.

Charlie 

Courtesy Ancestry.

Courtesy CWGC 

 

Edited 13 November , 2022 by charlie962

[PRC]

16 minutes ago, Emma V Legge said:

it seems he discovered that GG Victor often changed his middle name - to Alfred.

As far as the Army is concerned it looks like his middle name was Alfred and surname spelt Legge.  As his widows' pension would have been paid out in that spelling I suspect that's the one she used for dealing with officialdom.

Soldiers died in the Great War records him as born and enlisted Freshwater, Hampshire, so presumably he is the 23 year old Victor Alfred Legg, a Carpenter, living in the household of his widowed mother Jane at Woodside, Freshwater Bay, Freshwater on the 1911 Census of England & Wales. The actual census return completed by Jane makes it look like she has recorded her name and that of her two grand-daughters who were also living with her as LEGGE, although she has signed the declaration as LEGG.

Both images courtesy Genes Reunited.

As you can see no marital status details given for Victor.

His future wife appears to be the "Ivy" Conway, aged 23 and born Yeovil Marsh, who was recorded living with her parents at 3 Beech Road, Newport, Isle of Wight on the 1911 Census of England & Wales. Father Sydney has completed the census return and that is the name he has given her as. He was then aged 57, a Cowman on Farm, and gives his place of birth as Chitnole, Devon. His wife of 27 years is the 45 year old Kate, born Long Sutton. They had recorded a daughter Lilly, aged 23, but the line has been crossed through and noted away. There is then a 15 year old Flossie who was helping at home. Flossie and Lilly were born Yeovil Marsh.

But on the 1901 Census of England & Wales the head of the household has been noted by the census taker as Samuel M, (aged 46, a Farm Foreman, born Yeovil). But the other family members are Kate, (36, born Ilchester, Somerset), Lilly, (12, born Yeovil) "Inez", (12, born Yeovil) and Flossie, (5, born West Camel, Somerset). They were then living at a Cottage on Friars Mace Farm, Acton. On the 1891 Census the family were recorded at Ilchester, where father Samuel M. Conway, (37, born Chetnole), was recorded as a Farmer, while a couple of sources I've looked had have transcribed his 2 year old daughters name as "Iner K."

So name variations were as much a sign of the times as a deliberate attempt to hide from officialdom - in todays' modern age it's so easy to forget that.

The birth of Percy Arthur Legge, mothers' maiden name Conway, was registered with the civil authorities on the Isle of Wight in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1911. The birth of an Irene Phyllis LEGG, mothers maiden name Conway, was registered in the same District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), 1915.

The free search of the 1921 Census of England & Wales on FindMyPast shows Inez Legge, born c1888 Somerset, recorded living at Headley in the Alton Civil Registration District of Hampshire. In the same household was Percy A. Legge, (born c1911, Freshwater, Hampshire), Phyllis T. Legge, (born c1915, Freshwater, Hampshire), Sydney M. Conway, (born c1852, Chetnole, Devon) and Flossie Conway, (born c1895 West Camel, Somerset).

Reason for labouring the family history side is to try and get the area where he would be known nailed down. Local newspapers were totally dependant on submissions from family \ friends - sometimes via local freelancers. They were in the business of selling newspapers, so anything that could shift a few more copies would always be welcome. Conversely, if Inez had moved in with her parents while her husband was serving overseas, and the family relocated to Churt, then she may not have had easy access to the Isle of Wight papers and there may have been no-one else to put anything forward. People also tend to put pictures in the newspapers they read, so it may not be wise to over focus the search.

Pictures can also turn up at any point - enlistment, going overseas, wounding, being taken prisoner, home on leave, letter printed in the local paper, recommendations for award \ actual award, etc, etc, as well as death.  For those whose death was presumed or who died a prisoner of war there also in my experience a little glut of pictures at the end of December 1918 and into January 1919 asking returning prisoners if they have any information about the fate of the man pictured.

As a rough guide I think I'm doing well if I can source photographs for more than 10% of the names on any one war memorial. Which isn't to say there aren't more - I have a big folder gathered over the years of pictures of men that appear in newspaper titles that are not currently on line. The captions accompanying the pictures are so unhelpful that I have to hope that something will crop up that will make the connection. My oft quoted example is in a newspaper that covered Norfolk and North Suffolk that included a picture of a "Private Smith who is currently home on leave". Maybe he is one of the Smiths from the county who subsequently died and unknowingly I have his picture. I also have pictures captioned as maternal grandsons, nephews, son-in-laws, etc, with no obvious connection to Norfolk which will require a bit of genealogy legwork to find out who the man pictured actually is.

Ultimately however you may have to accept that there isn't a picture in the family now because there was never one to begin with.

I do wish you luck in your search.

Cheers,
Peter

 

 

 

 

[charlie962]

Continuing thoughts on Legge's death.

I have a copy of a a page of Part II Daily Orders for 1/5th Hants Howitzer Bty dated Basra 17/2/17.

"Deaths. 4535 Dvr Legge VA. Previously reported died whilst a pow,date unknown, now reported died of disease (enteritis) 24/5/1916." 

That matches the Soldiers Effects date. 

The search continues...

[charlie962]

@PRC Peter, you understand better than I the workings of CWGC, what with your recent successful new commemorations.

What are the CWGC likely to hold as proof that the man they record died on 31/8/16 and are they absolutely sure it was him, Legge. 

How does one ask this of CWGC?

Charlie

[charlie962]

Isle of Wight County Press 14/10/16.

Freshwater. The sad news was received on Oct 5th that Driver VA Legge, 1/5 Hants RFA, has died of disease as a pow in Turkey.

Edited 13 November , 2022 by charlie962

[Bartimeus]

I'm afraid the local Isle of Wight newspapers of the Great War period will be of no use when it comes to photographs - there were hardly any pictures (of any description) published then, and I can't recall seeing any at all of individual servicemen.

Similarly, he doesn't feature in the Gallup snapshot album held by the National Army Museum. While interesting from the point of view of giving some visual reference to the unit's time in India and Mespotamia, it contains very few photos of battery personnel, those that are featured being gunners rather than drivers. When 1/5th Battery arrived in Mesopotamia in March 1915, the guns and gunners went upriver (Lieut. Gallup included), while the drivers and horses (who were not needed at that stage) spent the next several months kicking their heels in Basra, catching malaria and generally having a fairly unpleasant time. 

As to Driver Legge, I think the death date of 24th May 1916 (or close to it) is most likely. In notes compiled by the Battery Commander, Major Thomson, there is a note "he died of enteritis at Diala", giving that date. This would fit with him being carried up the Tigris towards Baghdad aboard the Julnar; there is a confluence of the Diyala and Tigris rivers close to Baghdad. The date lines up too; Major Thomson (who had been aboard the Julnar as well) wrote home from hospital in Baghdad on May 27th, and included a note "I lost 7 men besides Tozer [another officer of 1/5th Battery, also aboard Julnar] between the 27th of April & the 18th May all from gastric enteritis. The illness often lasted less than 24 hours."

Bart

 

Edited 29 November , 2022 by Bartimeus

[charlie962]

On 30/11/2022 at 00:32, Bartimeus said:

As to Driver Legge, I think the death date of 24th May 1916 (or close to it) is most likely. In notes compiled by the Battery Commander, Major Thomson, there is a note "he died of enteritis at Diala", giving that date. This would fit with him being carried up the Tigris towards Baghdad aboard the Julnar; there is a confluence of the Diyala and Tigris rivers close to Baghdad. The date lines up too; Major Thomson (who had been aboard the Julnar as well) wrote home from hospital in Baghdad on May 27th, and included a note "I lost 7 men besides Tozer [another officer of 1/5th Battery, also aboard Julnar] between the 27th of April & the 18th May all from gastric enteritis. The illness often lasted less than 24 hours."

So who was buried at Afion and reburied at Baghdad? 

Legge may have been carried on Julnar (edited) as far as Baghdad and buried there although the journey was long and slow and some bodies were lost overboard. But no way would a body then be shipped by rail to Afion. There's an error somewhere. Most probably in the Turkish records for Afion.

Edited 2 December , 2022 by charlie962
Confusion on my part about steamerBasra

[charlie962]

13 hours ago, Bartimeus said:

I lost 7 men besides Tozer [another officer of 1/5th Battery, also aboard Julnar] between the 27th of April & the 18th May all from gastric enteritis. The illness often lasted less than 24 hours."

I presume that not all these men were onboard Julnar, because it includes a couple of days before the surrender? 

Charlie 

ps. These notes and letters of Major Thomson you refer to, would they be by any chance accessible?

Edited 30 November , 2022 by charlie962

[Terry_Reeves]

His name is on the Freshwater War Memorial (link below). The site also gives a link to the local family history site  which might be worth exploring:

https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/community/3767/?page=10
 

TR

[Bartimeus]

On 30/11/2022 at 13:22, charlie962 said:

I presume that not all these men were onboard Julnar, because it includes a couple of days before the surrender? 

Going through the 1/5th Hants Battery roll, I can find eight men who died between 27th April and 18th May (not counting Lieut. Tozer) - five Territorials and three Regulars (these from a draft attached as reinforcements some months before the siege). Only one was aboard Julnar, the others having died either at Kut, or at Shumran, the camp a couple of miles upriver where they were moved by the Turks shortly after the surrender.

The soldier who died aboard Julnar was a 17-year-old Driver named John Mulcock. I have a note saying that he died of gastro-enteritis on the River Tigris at 8 p.m. on 17th May, as Julnar arrived at the British Consulate in Baghdad (which was being used as a hospital). If I recall correctly, Major Thomson recorded this (and the details of Mulcock's will) in his field service pocket book.  

Thinking about it a little more, I'm not sure that I have any real reason to suppose that Driver Legge had travelled aboard the Julnar too.  He may have done, but equally, he could have been among those who marched to Baghdad from Shumran - a distance of no more than 100 miles. At least some of the Hants men set out on May 3rd and were in Baghdad by May 14th, so it's quite possible that Driver Legge fell by the wayside at Diala and died there. Beyond that, Curtis Gallup's account indicates that Julnar was not the only boat at the Turks' disposal for movements on the Tigris. He himself reached Baghdad by that route, the journey taking a little over four days, the twists and turns of the river making the distance travelled considerably longer than the more direct, overland route. 

EDIT: just re-read the thread and reminded myself that mention of Dvr Legge's death aboard Julnar came from the Effects Register. If the date is correct, it must have been during a different trip to that made by Thomson, Tozer and Driver Mulcock. If Julnar turned around immediately on the 17th, Gallup's statement of journey time seems to make it possible for her to return to Kut and then most of the way back to Baghdad again by the 24th. 

Driver Legge is conspicuous by his absence in any communication in the local (Isle of Wight) press from or regarding the men being held in Turkey, and I don't recall finding mention of him in other sources either, such as the Foreign Office files covering POWs in Turkish hands. That feels more consistent with his death taking place fairly soon after the end of the siege, and his never having made it further than Baghdad. As you suggest, dodgy record-keeping somewhere seems the most likely explanation for mention of a death at Afion creeping in.

Bart

 

  

Edited 2 December , 2022 by Bartimeus

[Bartimeus]

The enteric that was given as a cause of death in the cases of many troops after the surrender of Kut is often blamed on the hard barley biscuits that the Turks issued. Intended to be soaked and mashed up into a sort of porridge, they wreaked havoc on the digestive systems of weakened and half-starved men. These two were brought back to England in 1916, to demonstrate the sort of rations that were being provided to the prisoners. The fact that sitting on my desk in 2022 they are probably in much the same form as when they were first baked 106 years ago tells us a good deal about their properties !

 

 

[charlie962]

Another Soldier's description of the result of those biscuits. This man was writing to the parents of his friend who died at Shumran Camp. 

 

[charlie962]

On 30/11/2022 at 00:32, Bartimeus said:

As to Driver Legge, I think the death date of 24th May 1916 (or close to it) is most likely. In notes compiled by the Battery Commander, Major Thomson, there is a note "he died of enteritis at Diala", giving that date. This would fit with him being carried up the Tigris towards Baghdad aboard the Julnar;

The Julnar did stop on the way up to discharge some dead.

[Bartimeus]

51 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Another Soldier's description of the result of those biscuits. This man was writing to the parents of his friend who died at Shumran Camp. 

Many thanks for posting this, charlie962.

I have tried to send you a message replying to an earlier question but it comes back as "cannot receive". Could you let me know a means of getting in touch ?

Bart 

[charlie962]

Bart, I probable need to delete messages. Will check ..

Charlie 

...Yes, full. Some space now created!

Edited 2 December , 2022 by charlie962